How I Killed Your Master Page #001 to whenever we close this thread

[krogothwolf]

Are you talking about Motobu Udundi RPGdemon?

[Veho]

Originally Posted by MSperoni

This "Palace Hand" style intrigues me though, mainly cos I think it's kinda stupid to teach a bunch of princes to fight to a degree in which they can effectively kill people in hand-to-hand combat. (...) I wouldn't want to risk the death of a possible heir to the kingdom/empire on something as trivial as a brawl.

I guess it's primarily for self-defence, as the last line of defence against assassins. Assuming they've already evaded/disabled/bribed the bodyguards. It would be useless on the battlefield, because it wouldn't teach defence against broadswords and pikes and halberds but against concealed weapons like daggers or garottes, the type of weapons spies would use (fans, hairpins, paperclips, vicious papercuts, anything). It would be effective, brutal, and favor the one-hit-kill strikes and techniques. A palace-type prince, one that doesn't ride out to battle, isn't expected to be particularly strong, so a fighting style aimed at them would be concentrated on disabling and killing the opponent as quickly and effectively as possible. Pressure points, vital organs, tips and tricks, dirty fighting, underhanded moves, Goblin Punches, and the ancient and revered technique of using the chamberpot (and its contents) as a weapon. Anything to give a pudgy noodly prince an advantage over an opponent.

At least that's the way I picture it (influenced heavily by Frank Herbert's Dune series ).

[rpgdemon]

Here's a short wikipedia article on it. Well, kinda. The important bit would be this:

"Motobu-ryu, originally known as Go-ten-te (Palace Hand), is among the most esoteric forms of Okinawan karate still practiced. It aims to achieve maximum effect with minimum effort and, unlike more mainstream Okinawan styles, Motobu-ryu incorporates a vast arsenal of throwing and locking techniques."

The wikipedia article is more concerned about the American attempt at a replica of it, and only like twentyfive lines long. But, here it is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuma-Ryu


Edit: Might as well add in a bit of what I know of it, since Wikipedia's article is kinda lacking. If memory serves correctly, it was taught only to the princes, as a sort of defense for them. No one knew it existed, so they really couldn't be prepared when the prince suddenly disables them. The movements almost seem suited for royalty, in that they're mostly "graceful". They look rather unimposing when being viewed, almost as if the princes were slowly dancing with the person. The princes pretty much had control though, through pressure points, et cetera. A few details might be blurred, but that's the general gist of it. I remember actually having it (Sorta. The person didn't actually -want- to hurt me. :P) performed on me awhile back. It was surprisingly painful, for something that looked graceful and slow.

Double edit: Also, it was designed to be used not to be killed. Get rid of the enemy quickly and effectively, on a battlefield, or elsewhere. One of the main tenants was not standing still/having two feet planted on the ground, since that's essentially securing your death.

[MSperoni]

Originally Posted by rpgdemon

It aims to achieve maximum effect with minimum effort

if that's the case, and it is true (cos you know sometimes wiki articles and people who are fans of the style can be a little biased -- in a good enthusiastic way), then I would say if we're trying to figure out "the most efficient" hand-to-hand style then it would have to be a contender. I think styles designed around efficiency would be the pretty efficient. Still I think comparing a hand-to-hand style like motobu-ryu to iaido, a weapon style using a weapon as powerful as a katana is like comparing apples to oranges.

Extra

Originally Posted by Veho

It would be useless on the battlefield, because it wouldn't teach defence against broadswords and pikes and halberds.....A palace-type prince, one that doesn't ride out to battle, isn't expected to be particularly strong, so a fighting style aimed at them would be concentrated on disabling and killing the opponent as quickly and effectively as possible. Pressure points, vital organs, tips and tricks, dirty fighting, underhanded moves, Goblin Punches, and the ancient and revered technique of using the chamberpot (and its contents) as a weapon. Anything to give a pudgy noodly prince an advantage over an opponent.

Yeah I have a really hard time believing they would train a prince to ride out into battle to fight opponents who are armed, armored and sometimes have bows-and-arrows (and sometimes arquebuses) with nothing but his pudgy noodly prince fists. Even if this prince was around in the time Samurai battlefield tactics still focused on personal combat (which I guess was the 11th-12th century?), the samurai he'd be fighting would be on horses, with bows and arrows. If it was any time later, he'd be on the battlefield trying to hand-to-hand fight armored samurai with giant kick ass uber swords. So even if this Palace Hand was uber efficient, I dont' see him lasting long before he got hacked to pieces by even a mediocre samurai armed with a sword. But perhaps our Prince would be kickass enough to disarm and then subsequently beat a lone armed/armored warrior to death in the middle of a battlefield (using nothing but his hands hitting pressure points that are mostly covered up by armor).


I feel that as uber as a hand-to-hand style might be, it's inevitable it will be preempted by a weapon in real combat/battlefield conditions (much like the samurai swords were preempted by guns). So when we're talking about "most efficient style" I don't think it's very realistic to compare a hand-to-hand style to a pre-firearm weapon anymore than I think the same in regards to comparing a pre-firearm weapon to like a bazooka

Also there seems to be a very East-Asiancentric thing going on here, are there maybe any "western" weapon/hand-to-hand styles that could be contenders in the "most efficient" category?

Like.. just throwing it out here: Combat Sambo vs Motobu-ryu?

[rpgdemon]

Well yeah, against a weapon it'd obviously be lacking. That's like saying "Well, this sword technique pretty much sucks against my nuke."

[Veho]

But Motobo-ryu has weapons training as well as hand to hand. It might be pretty effective on the battlefield as well. Also, fighting multiple opponents is a large part of training, and that would come in handy in a battle.

(I've been reading up )

It also says that motobo-ryu doesn't have typical kata, but instead has "dances", where movements of the dance itself are used as fighting techniques. Some of these dances are actual traditional dances of Okinawa, where the art originated.

Which leads me to my pet theory, the "battle dance". Group dances are part of every culture, and I've always had a sneaking suspicion group dances, court dances, grand waltzes and other such activities were also used as battle practice. It taught complex coreographies, coordination, awarenes of one's surroundings, and graceful and precise movement in a crowd. Those are all skills useful in battle as well as a ballroom. Officers were expected to know how to dance in addition to their battle training, and this might have been one of the reasons. Why not add some pragmatism into all that decorum and etiquette. Add in all the sword dances in various cultures as a step between court dances and weapons training, and my theory starts sounding plausible.

Or so the pink unicorns tell me

[MSperoni]

Originally Posted by Veho

suspicion group dances, court dances, grand waltzes and other such activities were also used as battle practice.

As Groundskeeper Willie said about the Scots, something like "The kilt was only for day-to-day wear. In battle, we donned a full length ballgown covered in sequins (edit)! The idea was to blind your opponent with luxury!"

[Veho]

Originally Posted by MSperoni

In battle, we donned a full length ballgown covered in sequence!

"Sequins," possibly.


EDIT: But seriously, navigating the Dutchess of Quirm across a crowded dancehall full of moving, flailing people without stepping on someone, bumping into someone else or knocking over the canapé table is no mean task, and the ability to do so dependably can no doubt be used on a crowded battlefield as well.

And now to find a practical application of tango on the battlefield. Rose in teeth, and into the fray.

[rpgdemon]

Originally Posted by Veho

But Motobo-ryu has weapons training as well as hand to hand. It might be pretty effective on the battlefield as well. Also, fighting multiple opponents is a large part of training, and that would come in handy in a battle.

(I've been reading up )

I was pretty sure that was the case, but didn't feel like making the statement without reading it up. I -did- know that Palace Hand was dancelike, and useful for multiple opponents.


So, Matt. Get to learning Motobo-ryu. Use it in HIKYM. By an okinawan prince. Because no one else knew it.

Edit: Why an okinawan prince would be there, I don't know. Get Brian on that. :P

[Veho]

Back to the subject of most efficient style, the problem is that warfare evolves, and any style will be obsolete soon. That is, if we talk battlefield. Newer weapons defeat older weapons, until a countermeasure comes along that renders the new weapon obsolete, and the countermeasure is then circumvented by a new weapon still... until they invented guns, which don't require much style.

Off the battlefield, trying to decide which style is more effective is like arguing whose dad could win in a fight (or Spiderman VS Batman; same thing, really). You can't know unless you try it out, and even then, more training will usually trump any possible advantage of an opponent's style.

Wall of text.All martial arts are supposed to be effective, or at least more effective than the previous ones. And all styles start out that way. The problem is, fighting styles and martial arts all go through the same cycle. A natural progression. Or rather, sadly, regression.

Initially, the style grows and adapts, trying to become more and more effective. Victory is the only thing that counts. Once the practitioners (or the single founder) finds something that works, he sticks with it and hones it and fine tunes it to perfection, and the style becomes deadly and is the next big thing. The style peaks. But then comes stagnation, and then comes tradition, and then come (and this is the worst bit) sporting events. The style stops adapting and evolving. The "hurting people and breaking things" comes second to formalities and decorum. If the martial art is versatile, students will focus on their prefered aspect and neglect the rest of the style. If they go on to become instructors, they will teach their own substyle, and part of the original art will be lost, crucial bits along with the fluff.

But the worst thing that can happen to a martial art is to introduce any form of competition other than duels to the death The whole point of a martial art is the killing techniques. Inflicting damage. Targeting vital spots. Overpowering the opponent, or opponents, and escaping to safety. Competitions are anything but that; they're the complete opposite. The goal is to score points by striking non-vital areas. Knockouts are frowned upon. All effective, deadly techniques are forbidden (for obvious reasons), and the fight becomes ritualistic. That effectively kills the art.

Of course, since you can't exactly practice killing techniques, you'd run out of sparring partners pretty fast, focus of training shifts to the other aspects, they're taught only pro forma, and stop being effective. Stripped of the killing strikes, the art becomes little more than boxing. Or judo. The grabby-wrestly arts can be taught and practiced to their full extent, but they're not exactly deadly.

So the art becomes fluff and decorum and competitions, and loses its edge, and becomes a sport, until a new one comes along and grabs the title of "most effective".