D&D Question and Information thread. (First post updated!)

[RaiRai]

Making this thread so that questions about D&D can be put to the users here and you can work your words of wisdom here. D&D question threads will be deleted and questions will be moved here. That is all. =3

Meisteredit: This thread used to be in the Roleplaying section. Feel free to start new threads for your D&D questions. If you just have a quick question that isn't worth a thread, post it in here.

Okay, just feel free to start new threads for your questions. This one's being left stickied for archiving. See the last post in this thread or the Playing Games subforum rules for details.

[Jaguar]

I love D&D. I worship D&D. I'd slay every soul on this earth for D&D! D&D is my life!
(dead-on imitation of Red Mage)

I'm seriously very good at D&D and have even constructed some of my own prestiege classes and monsters.

[Static Hamster]

I actually was in the middle of creating a class of my own as well.

The Toon Mage.

Although all my DM's were too serious and wouldn't allow him into their games. He had a full spell list and everything.

[Lycanthrope]

I am the master of epic spells. I've found a few twinkery loopholes that if you wish, I can inform you how to exploit.

I haven't created any classes, but I'm working on a few. I've created a few monsters, however. I am also a novice rules lawer.

[TheSpiritOfVengance]

I can make classess that are pretty good. If you every need any.

[reality_deviant]

I don't really like to mess with weird races or anything, but I consider myself moderately competent in D&D lore, and have successfully educated more than a few newbies to the ways of quality d20 fantasy roleplaying.

[Dragonsbane]

Epic Spells kick ass........I'm currently designing one that will allow me to blow up planets, just for kicks;)

[reality_deviant]

I hate that fuckin' Canabulum guy in the ELH...my DM brought him into our game. He shows up just when we think we've done something awesome, to show how much he one-upped us without even trying. Just look at him...little level 64 creep...

[Jaguar]

I made my own class called a Construct Caster, who gradually transform from mages to giant warriors who can cast some cool spells.

[The_Bear]

I'm pretty good at the whole D&D ordeal. I know how to play a character well and I've taught others to do the same. I don't create any races or classes or that type of stuff, But I've got a good imagination. Too bad it only works in math class. I've been trying to set up my own campain to kick off the summer, and I've got some good ideas kickin' around in my head. If I ever get around to writing it all down I'll get it started.

[Static Hamster]

A good class? Anyone ever create a bad class?

My favourite of these was "The Coward" doomed to have adventure find him but not brave enough to face it, most of his plus points involved helping him run away. You also had to find a lever, this was the thing that could actually be tweaked to force you back into adventuring. The lever could be pride, or trying to impress women (many cowards have done several stupid things to impress women) or just plain getting blind stinking drunk.

It was a fun class. May not have had many weapon pluses...but it was fun.

[The_Bear]

A good class? Anyone ever create a bad class?

My favourite of these was "The Coward" doomed to have adventure find him but not brave enough to face it, most of his plus points involved helping him run away. You also had to find a lever, this was the thing that could actually be tweaked to force you back into adventuring. The lever could be pride, or trying to impress women (many cowards have done several stupid things to impress women) or just plain getting blind stinking drunk.

It was a fun class. May not have had many weapon pluses...but it was fun.

Let me guess, his name was Edward.

[Static Hamster]

Oh lord no. Rincewind the Wizzard. He had an intelligence of 9 the poor fool. Doesn't anyone read Terry Pratchett?

[Lycanthrope]

I once had a run in with an NPC party. It consisted of an insane spell-trigger-happy wizard, a brute cleric whose mental scores were so low that he druled, however had enough strength to win arm-wrestling against an ogre, and a whimpy fighter who wore glasses and used to be an english teacher. And me, the smart, cool, self-interested, nimble rogue, was forced to put up with them. I can't remember why I didn't kill them. There was a reason, I just can't think of what it was for the life of me...

[TheSpiritOfVengance]

Posted by Lycanthorpe I can't remember why I didn't kill them. There was a reason, I just can't think of what it was for the life of me...

Meat Shields? That sounds like why to me. There is always, always, always the spell happy mage. You can't have a good campaign without one. well you can they are just less fun.

Also if anyone wants one of my famous crazy little items, let me know and I will get you one or make you one...

[Dragonsbane]

spell-trigger-happy wizards? Do I know anyone like that? *whistles, trying to look innocent*

[reality_deviant]

My epic level sorceress ROCKS! She's all magic, all the time, baybee! She flies around, raining fiery devastation from above upon the wicked, and if they survive, she tries to rehabilitate them, which almost never works. Needless to say, she has a lot of recurring enemies...She also enjoys shopping for fun magical things and new clothes, and donating increasingly enormous chunks of treasure to the Church of Mystra.
[/charr0x0rzrant]

Ahem. Anyway, anyone else excited about that new campaign setting, Eberron? I've been following it in Dragon Magazine for a few months now, and I'm pretty psyched. Looks to be a very adventurous, unique world, yet also reminiscent of a FF world, which is a setting I've always wanted to run. It's supposed to come out in June, and i'm going to snatch it up asap. I'm still not sure what type of game to run for my group...any suggestions? I'd like to let them start thinking about character creation soon, but I should probably have some framework in mind.

[Dragonsbane]

My epic-level wizard was awesome too.........he created his own demiplane, used an Orgin of Species spell to stock it with his army of minions (a form of reptilian-elf thing.......had regeneration and high natural armor), and rode a Gold Great Wyrm Dragon into battle once.......he also got the Chosen of Mystra template (he used to be the lowest-level character in the party, so it wasn't too unbalancing) for saving the Dalelands from a Drow invasion.......and he rescued a bunch of Mystran clerics.

He built a big palace on his demiplane, set up keyed portals to a bunch of different planes, and used it as a top-secret base...........it was incredibly cool.

on a side note, I have decided that Eldritch Knights are too weak (compared to, say, a Blackguard), and so I am making a NEW class for fighter-mages.......and it shall rule ALL!!!!

[Static Hamster]

I might as well put in my two cents.

I had a famous wizard character as well. He was a greedy, cowardly mage who knew little of his spells and always cared about his own hide rather then the parties. He wasn't very high level either.


For example:

At the end of a particularly long day we were in a room and out from the ground jumps an Umberhulk. Well, Twitch only had one spell left, Wall Of Fog, and there was only one exit, a long hallway. Already in the back of the party he ran for the hall and cast Wall of Fog behind him. Since the spell slows people down as soon as they hit the fog, he effectively trapped the party in the room with the monster to save his own hide. Nice guy.

Later on he did start gaining power, he even got himself altered so that he had giant bat wings growing out of his back that folded into a cloak.

I miss him.

[Lycanthrope]

I'm working on making a campaign setting of my own. Pitty me.

[Darth SS]

My most memorable character?

WELL, it started as a greedy treasure hunter, but I eventually switched to Desert Bladesman (a class I created)

God, I miss him so much...

That, and we created an item for a girl that wasn't very used to D&D. Amulet o' ressurection. Bonds into her flesh, and whenever she dies, a new body (and her equipment) is cloned, transported, and her spirit enters it.

At one point, our huge ranger who has a portable battering ram grabbed her by the ankles, and two handed a dragon with her.

Then I failed seven sanity checks in a row. I started just cutting her head off, and she kept coming back! Then, I had to take another ten at -5. Needless to say, I failed them all and was reduced to a mumbling, drooling, empty husk.


But, I miss my desert swordsman. At one point, he ditched his heavy robe things, and grabbed some scale mail. Then defeated an army of ten-thousand on his own.

That, or when he was still a treasure hunter he dodged millions of spikes poisonous snakes, a vampire, fire, a giant boulder, several undead warriors, and another treasure hunter all at once with a 20. So, he basically effortlessly dodged every single attack, then brushed his hair back in place.

[The_Bear]

I had a Dwarf Paladin a while ago. His name was Mwarcus and he was level 8 with 20 con and toughness, adding up to 101 hp! Funny thing was that toughness saved him from unconsiousness three times in one session. He had a cha mod of +1, and 10 wis, so no spells for him. But he did have a +2 warhammer which I called the Smiting Warhammer of Smite, even though he barely smited anything.

Then there was the problem with his alignment. He wanted to drink ale becuase of his dwarf heritage, but he couldn't because of his palain code. Everytime he walked into a pub he would say, "Ale! No! Drink! I can't!"

[Static Hamster]

I have a thought that occurs to me. And even though I myself contributed to this. I don't think that telling each other about our characters wasn't what this threads original intention was...

[Forever Zero]

No, it did not seem to be meant as a discussion, it was meant as a place for those new to D&D to ask questions and get answers from D&D vets. You can make an actual 'D&D Discussion' thread if you wish though and that would seem to be fine...

[Dragonsbane]

I decided to call my new class.......the Spellsword prestige class! It has much stricter prerequisites than the Eldritch Knight prestige class, but as you gain levels the spellcasting penalty (%chance of spell failure) goes down, and you also get some free metamagic feats! Unfortunately, one of the prerequisites is Weapon Specialization with at least one weapon......so it's kinda limited to fighter/spellcaster types.....

Questions? Comments? Suggestions?

[Lycanthrope]

There already is a Spellsword prestige class. Its in Complete Warrior. Morover, it is pretty much what you described, minus the metamagic feats, and plus the ability to channel touch spells into your sword.

Sorry to crush your dreams.

[Dante]

Jst let him make his own Spellsword...

And which is better, spellsword or EK? I distinctly remember one of them giving M-U spellcasting progression (e.g. 1/level)

[Lycanthrope]

Spellsword has the advantage of being able to wear armor eventually. Eldritch Knight has the spellcasting advantage, as Spellsword only advances every other level.

[Dragonsbane]

Dammit! Lycan, can you send me stats for the Spellsword class? Part of the spellsword class I was making was that it had Eldritch Knight spellcasting progression, so it's apparently different from the "official" one......

[Jaguar]

The Spellsword is also in the D&D Tome and Blood Priestiege Class book. Here are the stats for a 10th level Spellsword:

Hit Dice: d8
Base Attack Bonus: +7
Fortitude: +7
Reflex: +3
Will: +7
Spells Per Day: This depends on your other base class. At every second level gained in the Spellsword class, the character gains new spell levels as if they advanced a level in their base class, but doesn't get any other special abilities granted by gaining a level in that class, like a bonus to turning and rebuking undead.
Abilities:
Spellsword Cache: At tenth level, the Spellsword can store spells of up to third level in their weapon. The amount of spells is the character's Spellsword level plus their Intelligence score.
Ignore Spell Failure: This chance increases with level, so a tenth level Spellsword has a 30% chance to ignore spell failure, which could be due to armor.
Channel Spell: This enables a 10th level Spellsword to channel a spell of 3rd level or lower through their weapon, so it takes effect when a target is hit with the weapon. Area spells like sleep don't work.

__________________________________________________ ______________________

You can still make your own variation. I do it all the time. I've seen at least 30 variations for the Dragoon class.

[Dragonsbane]

yeah........the Eldritch Knight had sucky Will saves, but a good Attack Bonus........

would it be too unbalancing to remove all the "channel spells through weapon" and "store spells in weapon" in exchange for better attack bonus and spell advancement every level, along with some free metamagic feats?

What are the prerequisites for the original Spellsword prestige class?

[edit] Is there really a dragoon class??

[Jaguar]

Prequisites for Spellsword are:
Base Attack Bonus: +4
Knowledge skill (any): 6 ranks
Proficiency with simple and martial weapons and all armor.
Capability to cast arcane spells of 2nd level or higher.
Special: Must have defeated an enemy through force of arms alone, not using any spells or class abilities.

From what I know, Dragoons for D&D were the ideas of hundreds of people who all created their own different versions, though they all had basically the same perspective.

And............Hmmmmmmm.........

It's my honest opinion that removing the Channel Spell and Spell Storing abilities would diminish the whole point of the Spellsword class (considering without them it would be just like a Fighter/Mage).................But you can make your variation however you want.

[Dragonsbane]

prerequisites for my class required a slightly higher BAB, and since the point is to use both magic and weapons in combat, you must have killed an opponent using both magic and a weapon you have Weapon Focus in (changed from Weapon Specialization). Also requires you to be able to cast 3rd level or higher arcane spells....

[Lycanthrope]

The art of creating a balanced prestige class is the combination of advantages and disadvantages.

[Dragonsbane]

This is true, and that is why I am asking.......

[RangerAidan]

Just for the fun of godmodding, I made a pretige class once, and lemme tell ya', it was godmoddy!

[Dragonsbane]

What was it called?

[RangerAidan]

I called it the Kazi, a sort of all-purpose martial artist. I think that with some serious tweaking, it could be fair and useable, but I'll have to find it first...

[Dragonsbane]

SERIOUS tweaking, if it was intended for godmoding purposes......

[Elminster_Amaur]

The art of creating a balanced prestige class is the combination of advantages and disadvantages.
Sword-chucker prestige class, here we come.

[Dragonsbane]

YES!!!!! I, Dragonsbane, will create the ultimate SWORD-CHUCKER prestige class!!!!!

[Lycanthrope]

God help us all.

[Dragonsbane]

Muwahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jaguar]

A sword-chucker guy should cut off his whole damn hand if he rolls a fumble.

[Kazastankas]

Swordchucks - Double weapon, Large, 2d8 damage, may be used to trip, and may drop when trip reverses. Whenever used, has 55% chance to also do full damage to user, 70% if no proficiency. Finesse and Focus both reduce it by 15%. If damaging self, cannot be parried, but can be rolled against AC and is susceptible to DR

Swordchucker
Hitdice: d12
Pre-reqs: +4 BAB, 8 Ranks in Tumble, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Sword-chucks), Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Sword-chucks), Dodge
Class Skills: As a fighter.
Restriction: Can use swordchucks, only swordchucks, and nothing else but swordchucks.

The swordchucker is a dangerous fighter of the highest degree. He risks body and limb to do massive damage to his foes.

Level | BAB ------ | Fort | Will | Refl | Notes
---------------------------------------------------------
1 --- | +1 ------- | +2 - | +0 | +0 - | Bonus feat, Take It Like A Man (2)
2 --- | +2 ------- | +2 - | +1 | +1 - | No Es Stabbed 1/day, Damage reduction 1/--
3 --- | +3 ------- | +3 - | +1 | +1 - | Take It Like A Man (4)
4 --- | +4 ------- | +3 - | +1 | +1 - | Bonus feat
5 --- | +5 ------- | +4 - | +2 | +2 - | Take It Like A Man (6), No Es Stabbed 2/day
6 --- | +6/+1 ---- | +4 - | +2 | +2 - | Damage reduction 2/--
7 --- | +7/+2 ---- | +5 - | +2 | +2 - | Bonus feat, Take It Like A Man (8)
8 --- | +8/+3 ---- | +5 - | +3 | +3 - | No Es Stabbed 3/day
9 --- | +9/+4 ---- | +6 - | +3 | +3 - | Take It Like A Man (10)
10 -- | +10/+5 --- | +6 - | +3 | +3 - | Bonus feat, Damage reduction 3/--

Bonus Feat - At every 3rd level beginning with level 1, a swordchucker may pick an additional feat from the fighter's feat list.
Take it like a Man - When taking damage from swordchucks, the Sword-chucker may subtract 2 from AC to gain DR 2/-- until the end of turn. The swordchucker can do this once a day. At the 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 9th levels, this ability bestows an additional 2/-- DR when used. Thus, a 9th level swordchucker would gain DR 10/-- until the end of turn.
No Es Stabbed - When activated, the Sword-chucker will take no damage from Piercing or Slashing weapons of any kind for 1 round. After that round, if damage was down, reduce the swordchucker's AC by the damage that the weapon would have done, divided by two, until the end of the round.

Cheap enough for you? ;)

[Static Hamster]

I would say a d12 for hit points for a Sword Chucker...they need high hit points.

[AndyBloodredMage]

Especially if the chucks can do 75-100% dmg right back at them. Might want to tone that down a bit.

[Dragonsbane]

have them gain DR as they go up in level, since their skin toughens, becoming Fighter-like (allowing them to survive attacks such as a knife in the head).

[Kazastankas]

Anyway, yeah, I think it is done. Some looks from people in my school tells me that this isn't as broken as I thought it is, but meh. Comments?

[Dragonsbane]

besides an evil laugh? Not really........

[Elminster_Amaur]

I wasn't even serious about that. But I'll keep it in my records....

[Kazastankas]

But that's the best part of the thing. ;)

[Elminster_Amaur]

What...the black text?

[Dragonsbane]

probably, yes

[secretskull]

hi im new and i wanted to know where can i build my charecter and find an adventure plz help

[Jaguar]

How do you mean?

[AndyBloodredMage]

You dont actually adventure on DnD terms on this particular thread. There is a process involved that you can do to being RP-ing, but if you are new you might not yet be ready to take on such a burden.

[Dragonsbane]

it would be too difficult, because of RM-style twinkery and people lying about their dice rolls and character attributes, to run an RP with actual D&D rules.......you can, however, use D&D style classes and skills in an RP

[Kazastankas]

Actually, it won't be difficult. The only thing that would allow rule foolery is a DM who is way too lenient. I can try to run a DnD campaign myself, 3.5e. It seems that LoC's not getting interest at all.

[High Octane]

http://www.petitiononline.com/Decealon/petition.html

Just thought you guys might want to see this.

Oh and anyone who cheats with rolls should realize that eliminates the point of playing.

[Dragonsbane]

thank you, whichever kind deity prevented this monstrosity from ever happening.......a second Dungeons and Dragons movie *shudders*.......the concept sickens me....

[Domon]

Im somewhat new to DnD, been playing for a couple years(Thats new right?) any way I love DnD. its soo fun. but damn nerds give it a bad look. when people see that i play it they either say: WTF is DnD? or You Friggen Nerd!

but still I love DnD.

I have a Samurai charecter right now. I dont play very often only like every other saturday. :( I wish i could play more.

I just wanted to say that DnD rocks...


[EDIT] HOLY crap they were gonna make another DnD movie! jesus the first one sucked ass.

[Dragonsbane]

I'm a nerd, and a geek, is there something wrong with that? The people who say those sort of things (i.e. "you freakin' nerd!") aren't worth listening to, they should have been euthanized when they were born, as they are simply a waste of genetic material, food, water, and air. I'm lucky I don't have to listen to those sort of remarks, having a black belt in Taekwondo has its uses.....*evil grin*

[Lycanthrope]

Im somewhat new to DnD, been playing for a couple years(Thats new right?) any way I love DnD. its soo fun. but damn nerds give it a bad look. when people see that i play it they either say: WTF is DnD? or You Friggen Nerd!

but still I love DnD.

I have a Samurai charecter right now. I dont play very often only like every other saturday. :( I wish i could play more.

I just wanted to say that DnD rocks...


[EDIT] HOLY crap they were gonna make another DnD movie! jesus the first one sucked ass.

DUDE! 1) I've only been playing a year now, and I have the rules memorized. 2 years is not "new" 2) every other friggen saturday? I want your RP-life. I'm lucky if I get to play in a month.

[Kazastankas]

Once a month, yet you are active online? Huh.

[SquirrelWizard]

I use to play about once a week, but the restraunt that we went to went out of bussiness, so we are kinda in limbo. Also, I have created some purty unique characters. One of which included the Mach 3 Monk.

[Dragonsbane]

ok....weird thought.

Still spells don't require gestures, and thus ignore armor-related chance of spell failure. Quickened spells require only a moment of concentration, so they don't need gestures or words, so wouldn't they ignore armor-related chance of spell failure too?

side note: do Quickened spells need material components?

[SquirrelWizard]

Yes, Quicken spells are subject to Armor's spell failure %. Basically, you make a quick gesture oppose to a lenghty one. You still have to make the gesture. As for material, I think you still need the material component, because they made a specific feat to remove the material component. I would think that the bonus that a quicken spell gives is the fact that you should be able to cast it in melee combat (ie. the other guy doesn't get enought time to interupt the spell) you can cast another spell after that. (ie a quicken fireball followed by a normal fireball for 20d6 fire damage in a decent sized radius)

[Dragonsbane]

but, to quote the PHB........."quickened spells are cast with no more than an instant of concentration", and when describing what the spell looks like when cast (in the DMG), it describes it thus "he seemed merely to focus on the target, and suddenly an immense Fireball struck his attacker", no gestures OR words. Quickened spells are counterbalanced by the fact that a quickened spell is 4 levels higher than usual. MAterial components are necessary, but you just hold them.

[Lycanthrope]

I counter with the Epic Level Handbook. In this one may choose to make something lack verbal and somatic components (+2 each) and you may choose to make a spell quickened (+28). The relevant factors in the spell, Momento Mori, which kills with but a thought from the caster is "quickened (+28 DC), no verbal or somatic components (+4)". A quickened spell does require both verbal and somatic components, they are just both accomplished so fast that you couldn't even catch it being cast with your eyes.

[Dragonsbane]

I stand corrected *bows*

[Magic E-Mail Chicken]

I still have trouble with the rules of divine magic, let me know if i have this right.

If a say druid has 4 level 3 spells per day, the druid would chose level three spells until the druid had 4 spells, but they are individual and are not like a bard who can pick any spell at any time. The druid could chose to have say, 2 copies of a cureing spell and an attack spell, and one summoning spell. Correct?

[Kazastankas]

Divine spells are called upon, not memorized at the beginning of each day. 4 slots per day for divine spells only means that you can cast up to 4 level 3 spells that day. You don't have to specify the spell, but you ARE bound the the restrictions and such. Otherwise, you can cast any L3 spell you can cast.

[reality_deviant]

No, clerics and druids have to pray/meditate at the beginning of each day for specific spells. Evil clerics can later channel the energy into harmful energy, and good clerics can channel the energy into healing, meaning they can swap out specific spells for a cure/inflict spell of the same level. Druids can do something similar, but with Summon Nature's Ally instead.

[Dante]

Core classes which prepare spells - Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Ranger, Wizard.

Core classes which need not prepare spells - Bard, Sorcerer.

Only clerics can spontaneously convert spells to cure/inflict spells. AFAIK Druids have no such ability. Ranger and Paladin cannot spontaneously convert.

[AndyBloodredMage]

Spontaneous spells, and CHA-inspired spellcasting is why Sorcerers are always the best in my spellcasting book.

[Dante]

But wizards get around that problem with enough scrolls, and INT-based casting also means wizards tend to have more skill ranks.

[AndyBloodredMage]

Other than spellcraft, concentration, and maybe scry, do spellcasters really need many skill ranks? If you want a versatile character with many levels of ranks, go rogue or 3.5 ranger.

[Dante]

You'd be surprised by what a wizard can do with many skill ranks... whereas a sorcerer's Cha bonus is only good for social situations (for the most part beyond spellcasting).

[AndyBloodredMage]

I suppose all those skills might be useful outside of combat, but consider something else. Just about every small task can be done with a low level cantrip, of which you can cast many of, be it opening a door or picking a lock on a chest. Now aside from domination, people are some of the hardest game factors to manipulate, whether you're trying to get the discount on a magic shield, or getting the postman to deliver your letter post-haste. In game terms a CHA stat is usually the most useful, for anything else can be done with spells.

[Dante]

You do have a point there, but you'll run out of cantrips eventually (barring wands of cantrip, in which case sorcerers would rock).

And also, having more skill points also means a wizard can "maintain" more skills at a high level. Knowledge skills can also be maintained in addition to Scry, Concentration and Spellcraft, which lets the wizard shine at his role - a master of obscure and arcane knowledge.

I do agree that the Cha bonus is very useful (I've played an iaijutsu master before,and Charisma is his friend) even in non-combat situations. Plus, it's cooler.

Hmm, sounds like a concession... yeah, pretty much. But never underestimate the power of high INT!

[Lycanthrope]

I've never run out of a spell I've maxed in. And this is why party dynamics come in. Have a party with a bard or rogue, a sorcerer, a fighting class, and a cleric, and you all rock, because you gain the best abilities in all quadrents of power; infantry (fighter), artillery (sorcerer), medic (cleric) and spec. ops (rogue). Although sorcerers generally don't do quite as well outside of combat as wizards, they will wreak havok against enemies by focusing on evokations and/or necromancy, with occasional spells like "disintegrate." And, for several obvious reasons, a sorcerer is less likely to be caught unprepared with not enough spells to fight an enemy. Instead, the lament of the sorcerer is "But I don't have that spell!" which, again, can be solved with a few gold pieces and a magic shop.

[Dragonsbane]

Sorcerors may be more persuasive, but a Wizard can easily manipulate one into doing his bidding thanks to his superior intelligence. The sorceror's greatest strength can also be his greatest weakness, and since many of them are airheads.......*evilgrin* they aren't hard to control.

[Lycanthrope]

Not if you play your cards right you aren't. Plus, a sorcerer is more fun to play as than a wizard.

[SquirrelWizard]

Although, the Wizard gets higher level spells quicker. That, and the fact that wizards can add Metamagic feats to spells without increasing the casting time. They are the only arcane character class that can cast a spell using the Quickened metamagic feat, without having another special feat.

Wizards are not nessicerly artillery pieces as they tweak the battle to their liking. If tweaking means you have to disintigrate a person, then they do that.

Finally, Sorcerers are harder to play than a wizard. Wizards can write spells into their spellbooks, and once it is there, it is just a matter of readying it, and they can cast it.
Sorcerers cant do that. They only get a set number of spells per level, and have to choose them wisely. Of course they can cast spells from items, but they cannot get new spells from scrolls.

So basically, Wizards have a massive amount of spells at their fingertips, but have to choose which ones they want to cast before hand, and Sorcerers have a massive amount of spellcasting ablility, but lack the diversity of spells a wizard has.

[Lycanthrope]

Yes but I have little use for spells other than artillery. Tell me, how many fireballs can a wizard cast in a day? Four. Exactly. How many can a sorcerer use? six.

[AndyBloodredMage]

Actually, I had a long discussion with my DM about the quicken feat. We finally decided that the spirit of the feat was that it could be casted quickly, so he let me use it without it taking a full round action.

Sorcerors may be more persuasive, but a Wizard can easily manipulate one into doing his bidding thanks to his superior intelligence.

What the crap are you talking about? The charisma stat determines appearance, and skills in speaking. That involves persuasion, not intelligence. While INT may come up with the thought of convincing the guy to do something, it takes CHA to get him to actually do it.

[Lycanthrope]

Actually, I had a long discussion with my DM about the quicken feat. We finally decided that the spirit of the feat was that it could be casted quickly, so he let me use it without it taking a full round action.

Same with mine. He also argued that this balanced out sorcerer somewhat.

[Dante]

Actually, I had a long discussion with my DM about the quicken feat. We finally decided that the spirit of the feat was that it could be casted quickly, so he let me use it without it taking a full round action.

Actually, sorcerers can't even use the Quicken Spell feat unless they can prepare arcane spells, buy taking the Prepare Arcane Spell feat.

[Lycanthrope]

I yet again counter with epic level. In the part where they talk about sorcerer, they say that an option is to get "automatic quicken spell" even though one would have to "waste" a slot on quicken.

[Dante]

I yet again counter with epic level. In the part where they talk about sorcerer, they say that an option is to get "automatic quicken spell" even though one would have to "waste" a slot on quicken.

Oh, that's fine. I'm just saying in nonepic you need to be able to prepare arcane spells to quicken them. Notice I did not say taking the feat is prohibited - just USING it.

[SquirrelWizard]

Yes but I have little use for spells other than artillery. Tell me, how many fireballs can a wizard cast in a day? Four. Exactly. How many can a sorcerer use? six.

I'm just gonna say this. Not all spell casters are healing engines, or objects of infinate destruction. Fireball is a nice spell, that is certain. But in a good game, you cant get around just blasting everything in sight. Your bound to piss off some diety, and you dont want to mess with them. For example. If a wizard forsees a serious combat ahead, he can start the day preparing defensive spells. If he sees that there will be magical combat, then he can prepare spells that ward against magic. A group of improved invised adventurers usually gets the drop on enemies, and a rogue with improved invis is a little scottish machine of death (scottish parts sold seperately, some assembly required) basically, if the enemy has no magic active against invisablity, the rogue can slip in, and take out a sentry with a 6d6 attack. (including sneak attack damage). Instead of dropping a fireball on them, and waking the rest of the people.

Now, for the 60 million dollar question.

How many more level nine spells can a sorcerer cast at level 17 than a wizard?

[Dante]

You don't know? By the way, taking a specialist Incantatrix gives you the same spell progression as a sorcerer, or maybe better...

[Lycanthrope]

One less, but in four levels a sorcerer, again, surpasses a wizard in spells-per-day. And no, a sorcerer isn't just going around blasting things, but lets face it, DnD is a game about blasting things to pieces, and adaptability is the key to it. Out of combat, a wizard is more adaptable. In combat, a sorcerer is. Say, for instance, that you think your going against an white dragon. You pack heavy on fire spells. But then your DM pulls the switch on you and your fighting a red dragon. True, before you entered combat, you'd be able to "knowledge arcana" to know that the smell of the dragon was that of a red dragon, but generally you'd have already prepared your spells and if you suggest backing off the rest of the party gets pissed at you. But a sorcerer doesn't have to lay out what spells he intends to use ahead of time.

[SquirrelWizard]

You said that DnD was just about blowing stuff up. Well, combat can get like that, but if you look into the DMG, then you will find out that if the party bypasses an encounter, without having to fight it, then they still get the exp for it. So, you can use 3 fireball spells, on the squad of ogers, or you you can just avoid them with an invisiblity circle, or just send them running down the hall with an illusion. It is really a matter of preferance. Also, about the wizard's metamagic feats. A wizard can cast using feats without extending the casting time (I am refering to the offical rules) so, they can cast a maximized fireball as an standered action, instead of the full action required by the sorcerer. This, and you cannot forget the fact, that a wizard can write spells to his spellbook! The sorcerer, or the bard, can do that. So, given enought time, the wizard can find a spell that readies him for almost anything.

Finally, about the whole white dragon/red dragon switchup. First, the party was extremely underinformed. Second, they were extremely stupid to be underinformed in the first place.

[Dragonsbane]

Eventually, a wizard will know every arcane spell........the sheer versatility allowed by this is compensated for by the fact that a wizard has to decide at the beginning of each day which spells to prepare. Basically, with a little foresight a wizard can be much more powerful than a fireball-slinging sorceror. Playing as a sorceror was fun the first time I tried it, until we got into a situation where I didn't have the needed spell and the DM had to bring in an NPC wizard to help us.

Sorcerors are generally great NPCs, because the DM knows what spells they will need and when they will need them, but for a PC, a wizard is a much more useful addition to the party.

[AndyBloodredMage]

Playing as a sorceror was fun the first time I tried it, until we got into a situation where I didn't have the needed spell and the DM had to bring in an NPC wizard to help us.
I suppose scrolls didn't exist in your world then, huh?

[Dante]

By the same token wizards can have near-infinite spells with scrolls...

[Lycanthrope]

How about we get back on subject, and steer away from sorcerer v. wizards stuff.

My Problem: I was stupid enough to promice a game in a new campaign setting to my friends. A campaign setting that I'm designing. I have more new monsters to make and prestige classes to work on than I know what to do with. I'm overwhelmed, so I ask here, as this is the point of this thread.

Monsters:
I need suggestions as to what spell-like abilities to give a Sidhe (I may differentiate Seelie and Unseelie). I already have: Invisibility, Alter-self, Baleful Polymorph. I need more.

Classes:
Guardian of the Circle: An uber-guard, trained for defending artifacts and entryways. I want some good defensive stuff. I have a few ideas. PM me for more info.
Knight of the Phoenix: Combats creatures tainted by dark influences. Uses fire as a force of good, restoration, and purification. One of their abilities need to be "Purifying Flames" which will destroy evil influences (like *ahem* lycanthropy, for instance) or destroy the bearer of such influences. I've got the specifics, so don't bother about that.
Warden: Master's of Guerilla combat. Things that I want them to have: the ability to hide well; the ability to use a sneak-attack with bow and arrow, the ability to seek out weeknesses in armor against a flat-footed enemy, and (most importantly) the ability to be able to get out of close combat without provoking an attack of oppertunity.

Please, I need some suggestions here. This is rather overwhelming.

[Dragonsbane]

the Manual of the Planes says that Sidhe are just half-fiend or half-celestial elves.......this description is lousy, and I'm glad you're changing it.

Spell-like abilities? Charm Person/Monster, Dominate Person/Monster.

[Dante]

Wolf, how about evil PrCs? Like Devastator Vanguard (abilities optimized for killing large amounts of weak enemies, at higher levels can focus many attacks on one foe), Doom Locus (bonds with a specific site through blood sacrifices and can eventually animate physical geography to fight with and for him) etc, etc .

[Dragonsbane]

Elven High Mage, certainly...

[Lycanthrope]

Well, running a campaign in a new campaign setting, I'm only using those that I need. I'll get to new Prestige classes eventually, but most of the ones warranting prestige classes are on the good side. What evil gets in this is a shit-load of new monsters and templates. But I have them under control. Except for one new thing:

For those unfamiliar with the myth of planting dragons teeth, the idea is if done and done correctly, you will reap an army of invincible and unstoppable warriors. In this campaign setting, a spell facilitates the creation of such creatures. Now in myth, they weren't neccessarily evil, and I'm undecided about that point. However, their usage in the game will be evil. Reguardless, I've gone a bit beyond and created two designations: Fang Lord, created with the tooth of a Great Wyrm, and Fang Warrior, created from a younger dragon. Fang Lords are intellegent. Fang Warriors are mindless soldiers. What I need: what type does this fall into? I've narrowed it down to four catagories: construct, monsterous humanoid, plant, undead. Also what, if any, subtypes should I give them? I kinda need it so I can create the monster since its nice to know what type of hit dice I'm going to be using, etc.

[AndyBloodredMage]

Probally have each tooth yield a dude with 1/4 or 1/8 of the hit dice of the dragon that produced teh teeth. Also, the way you described it as unstoppable warriors, seems to me to be constructs, with a subtype in the alignment of the dragon that produced it.

[Lycanthrope]

Well... I've got most of the stuff already planned out. The reason they're unstoppable is because they regenerate like a tarrasque. but one vote for construct.

[AndyBloodredMage]

Regeneration... like a tarrasque?! Those things are nigh-impossible to kill!! They regenerate like every point of damage insantly, and you have to bring it to something like -30 hit points. If they had that, then yes, they would definitely be unstoppable.

[Jaguar]

Plus, after reducing a tarresque to -30 hit points, you have to use a Wish or Miracle spell to keep it dead. Considering how it has 840 hit points, I set up a whole D&D campaign designed to find how to kill it. My party of level 20 characters got butchered, and I had to bring in a great wyrm gold dragon to finally kill it.

[SquirrelWizard]

A different route you can go is to give them massive amounts of HP. And a little damage reduction (10/+3 is good depending on your game). Followed by a small regeneration ability. So basically, you get something that can take alot of damage. Isn't even phased by weaker attacks, and regenerates every round. It would make them seem nigh impossible to kill, but it could easily be done.

As a final note, I wouldn't make them constructs, because constructs have crap for a fort save. And disintigrate would make any construct disapear in a puff of smoke (save for goloms)

[TheCookieMomma]

I'm a D&D'er, relatively new. I've only played in 2, maybe three campaigns, and was the token female in each one. My favorite character so far was a small gnome illusionist who had a rod of wonderment that cast random spells when used. It was so much fun.
:)
SARA

[Dragonsbane]

constructs are also immune to many of the things that require a Fortitude save...but I dunno if that includes disintegration...

[AndyBloodredMage]

It doesn't include disintegration, so give them like amulets or something that make them have good fort saves.

[Lycanthrope]

No, I'm confident in my decision about regeneration. They are more of a campaign point than anything else. There's a way to kill them that does not involve wish or miracle, which is to destroy the tooth from which they grew, thus destroying the magic which binds them. These aren't exactly things that are supposed to be faced daily.

I might put a delay on their regeneration, but what I mean was that no matter how much you kill them they always will regenerate eventually, making an army of these things, yes, nigh unstoppable. Throughout most of the campaign itself, there will be only one of them, a Fang Lord who is intent on raising himself an army and will be one of the last sub-bosses before they finally duke it out with the final villain. By the time that they are fighting these things, they will probably be epic, and these things are scary, but epic is epic.

As a second note, things like amulets won't work, because the concept of sewing dragons seeds is that you suddenly have an unstoppable army out of nowhere (you run across the phrase every once in while, when a character in a book seems to suddenly aquire a huge and powerful army). They emerge completely ready for battle, fully armored and weapons in hand.

[Dragonsbane]

Would they have the tooth on them, or would the Fang Lord keep the teeth from which his army grew?

[Lycanthrope]

The teeth would remain where they were planted. Generally, this is highly guarded or very well hidden or both.

[Dragonsbane]

would they build their castle on top of the field with the teeth, for example?

[Lycanthrope]

yes, although they aren't exactly adept at building, being warriors above anything else. The famous "historical" example was simply a mountain lair, however densely populated by fang warriros and a few lords.

[Dragonsbane]

but Roman soldiers, despite being extremely professional when it came to combat, made incredibly good forts...so being warriors might not hinder them when it came to constructing fortifications.

[Lycanthrope]

Lets put this way. Their swords are affixed to their arms. These are agents of utter destruction.

[Kazastankas]

Which is why the Lords employ slaves to do their dirty work for them. Either way, I bleieve it would rank under construct, indeed. Though you probably could make it work under undead. Eh. Interesting setting you have. I've never actually made it to epic before, unfortunately. Level 19 though, yes.

[Dragonsbane]

even so, they could still be monstrous humanoid...just because they are created doesn't mean they aren't biological organisms.

[Lycanthrope]

no, I've actually narrowed it down to undead or construct. They do not eat or sleep.

[Dragonsbane]

what about plant?

[Lycanthrope]

Plants eat. Yes, I know they shouldn't. But they do.

[Dragonsbane]

They get nutrition from the soil, as well as water (I may be missing something, not sure).....only the ones in the Monster Manual really "eat", and that is because they are monsters.

If all else fails, try Outsider....where they put the creatures they can't fit anywhere else

[Zweihander]

Although not really adept at this stuff, I vote for construct. You created them from seemingly inorganic materials, if magic is inorganic. And undead are usually, well, created from previously alive things. The tooth iteslf isn't reanimated, so I would call them constructs. They don't eat or sleep, and last time I checked zombies ate brains.

[Dragonsbane]

that makes sense, though zombies don't actually eat brains, since they no longer need to eat at all.

[AndyBloodredMage]

They eat brains because brains taste good. What? Why are you looking at me like that? You don't like brains?

[Dragonsbane]

Who DOESN'T like brains?

[The_Bear]

:fighter: Oh thems my brain meats! But yeah, undead technically have to die first, so they had to have been alive before that. So I guess teeth would be constructs, unless they are from an outsider.

[AndyBloodredMage]

Well when you think about it, aren't teeth dead? They are produced by calcium deposits, but are attached to a vein and have nerves. When the tooth is removed, the vein is severed, it cannot grow anymore, thus it "dies." It could be undead.

[Dragonsbane]

that makes sense, but somehow I can't picture these as being undead.........could you give us more of a description, Lycanthrope?

[Lycanthrope]

okay. They appear as walking suits of armor, ridged in spike, with long blades either asphixed to their writsts or where their hands should be (undecided), except that the armor appears to be made out of bone.

[AndyBloodredMage]

If it's made of bone, then it could be interpretted as a skeleton, ie undead.

[Dragonsbane]

sounds more like Construct or Outsider to me...

[Joseph Pandora]

sounds more like Construct or Outsider to me...

More like a construct to me but it could easily be an outsider.

[Kazastankas]

Living 'armor' is quite construct-like, I believe.

And virtually anything not human can be an outsider. :P

[AndyBloodredMage]

If the armor is bone-like, and all living armor is contruct-like, then wouldn't skeletons be constructs? Food for thought...

[Joseph Pandora]

no. They wouldn't. At all. The skelington is a conduit for a dead soul the fact that it is made from bone is completely irelleivent.

[AndyBloodredMage]

Untrue. Skeletons in DnD terms are souless abominations, brought to life through sheer force of malice & magic by the summoner, no soul present.

[Joseph Pandora]

Untrue. Skeletons in DnD terms are souless abominations, brought to life through sheer force of malice & magic by the summoner, no soul present.

Touche.

But you forget one key thing... it clearly says on page 109 of the player's handbook that your mother is a harlot.

Also you will rue the day you crossed me.

[Lycanthrope]

Doesn't qualify as outsider. It is native to the material plane, and it has no ancestery from other planes.

[Dragonsbane]

technically, undead differ from constructs in that they are animated by means of negative energy instead of positive ("life") energy. This is why negative energy heals them and positive energy harms them.

and skeletons aren't the conduit for a dead soul, ghosts are:p

[Lycanthrope]

hmmm... Dragonsbane may have just brought up the decive factor.... however there are some constructs made by evil means, the fact that they are formed by an evil ritual, and have an almost lich-like weakness seems to make them undead in my mind. If anyone wants to argue me out of it, I'm still open, but I'm going to go ahead and start working on the stats with that in mind.

[Dragonsbane]

if you make them undead, have it be more than just planting the teeth.....make it be the culmination of a dark ritual or something.

[Lycanthrope]

It is. Not the culmination, but the basis. Not really a dark ritual so much as just a dark spell, using the planted tooth of a Great Wyrm Evil Dragon, forms a Fang Lord. A fanglord can create Fang Warriors out of the teeth of lesser dragons.

[Dragonsbane]

that sounds like Monstrous Humanoid........but if it uses the Dragon's life force to power the spell after trapping it in the teeth, then Undead would make sense.

[Lycanthrope]

Well, it definitely isn't monsterous humanoid. They are closer to abaration than monsterous humanoid. However, even abarations eat and sleep.

[SquirrelWizard]

Touche.

But you forget one key thing... it clearly says on page 109 of the player's handbook that your mother is a harlot.

Also you will rue the day you crossed me.

To further push the issue, undead are creatures of Negative Energy. Flesh Goloms are not Undead, because they are not completely infused with Negative Energy. Meaning that they only have enough Necromancy running through them to keep the Flesh workable, and intact. Skeletons on the otherhand, are creatures of complete Negative energy, working through the physcial form of a skeleton.

That, and there is no reason to make conjectures on the personal life of somebodies mother just because they have a good point.

[Dragonsbane]

he's only joking about the mother being a harlot...

[AndyBloodredMage]

But you forget one key thing... it clearly says on page 109 of the player's handbook that your mother is a harlot.
HOLY CRAP! It does say that! Damn wizards of the coast and their list of harlots...

[Dragonsbane]

*looks it up* dammit, I was wrong.........I suppose that makes Andy a whoreson....

[Omega]

ok i have a inquiry

me and my friends want to start up a D&D game however we
1. have anything at all
2. dont want to get swindled by the local shop owner into buying more then we initially need
3. want to know the bear essentials

[Dragonsbane]

1. if you have anything at all, you'll go out and buy a Player's Handbook, a Monster Manual, and a Dungeon Master's Guide.
2. go to a reputable comic shop, if they tell you what I told you then they're honest and can be trusted. They might recommend some additional stuff, though....
3. Well, bears are big omnivorous mammals that like to eat honey, blueberries, and small children. They hibernate during the winter and are dangerous when provoked. Does that answor your question?

[Omega]

thanks dragonsbane for your info and candorous wit!

[Magic E-Mail Chicken]

Player's Handbook ,Monster Manual, and a Dungeon Master's Guide.
Thats all i have and i get by fine. Dont forget character sheets!

[AndyBloodredMage]

You don't have to buy any if you don't want to, just goto the wizards of the coast website and download the charactersheet there. Then you can have as many as you want.

[Magic E-Mail Chicken]

Was that to me or to O mega?

[Dragonsbane]

thanks dragonsbane for your info and candorous wit!

welcome as always, O mega!

I bought loads of sourcebooks, extra stuff, and lots of the Forgotten Realms material....but I'm a Forgotten Realms fanatic whose parents can afford to buy him books.

[AndyBloodredMage]

If i'm talking to someone who just posted a message, I don't bother quoting it. I was talking to e-mail chicken.

[Dragonsbane]

I do the same thing, actually....it's not uncommon and it saves a lot of time.

[Omega]

fun fact: ive purchased the players handbook, dm guide and monster manual and some dice.... read most of it tryed to get thorough a simple battle FUGED UP ENTIRLY is there a link to anything that can explain the rules to a dummard like me? or muct i try to reanylise the books?

[AndyBloodredMage]

I can't think of any specific site off the top of my head, but maybe you should tell us what you did, and we will try to see what you did wrong.

[Dragonsbane]

read the section on combat in the Player's Handbook, that's my advice.......and DMing isn't such a good idea for a first-time player.

[AndyBloodredMage]

Maybe not, but runnning a hypothetical battle is always a good idea to get a feel for the game and how powerful your character is so that you don't do dumbass things like challenging a tarresque when you're level 5.

[Dante]

Maybe not, but runnning a hypothetical battle is always a good idea to get a feel for the game and how powerful your character is so that you don't do dumbass things like challenging a tarresque when you're level 5.

That should be painfully obvious... But it helps to get a feel for the game mechanics by which the Tarrasque will stomp yo ass into the ground.

[Dragonsbane]

I'm guessing that even a level 5 character would know enough not to challenge an immense spiky lizard that everyone else is running away from in terror.....especially considering that it's eating everything in its path!

On second thought, I do know people stupid enough to do that...

[Omega]

read the section on combat in the Player's Handbook, that's my advice.......and DMing isn't such a good idea for a first-time player.

well we got it all running relitivly smooth now
the only reason im dm is because i lost the coin toss... were all new players

[Dragonsbane]

ooh! I have an idea! Make the villain an evil demon with a desire to take over the world, and he smokes cigars and has a British accent!

[Omega]

ooh! I have an idea! Make the villain an evil demon with a desire to take over the world, and he smokes cigars and has a British accent!

GENIOUS! ... that is so being written into the story... also im going to make him the owner of a british pub that only server warm cheese cake... yesssss ... thats gunna be good

[Dragonsbane]

Here's a line for him, "'Ere! Pike off, berk!" (pronounce "pike", "poike"...the rest is fairly simple)

you could have him wear a barkeep's apron....

[Lycanthrope]

Here's a parabol for you.
You know you need a new DM when:
"Awaken my players and know the weakness that is your birth-right. Know that I am the Dungeon Master, the eternal will of the game, and that you have been created to entertain me. Now... Dance, monkeys! Dance!"

[reality_deviant]

I have now, in my posession, a shiny new copy of the Eberron campaign setting, complete with promotional Warforged miniature for reserving it. I am completely in love with it. It appears to be almost the anti-Forgotten Realms....the gods aren't constantly meddling in mortal affairs, technology has actually advanced somewhat, and, most importantly, the heroes are the Heroes from Day 1. They have that extra spark that sets them apart from the rest of the world, and they have to rely on themselves rather than some 40th level NPC savior. All this must not go without saying, I ADORE Forgotten Realms. I know more pointless cultural tidbits, posess a broader understanding of the cosmology, and have read more of the novels, than anyone else I'm aware of in the local gaming circles. But D&D needed something to revitalize it, and I think Eberron may be just the ticket. If anybody else has been following the releases in Dragon magazine, or actually ends up purchasing the book, I would love to see what ideas and stories you come up with.

That's what I love about it, really. You open the book, and it's like you can see hundreds of untold stories flashing before your eyes. I wish I could just dive in and explore...

[Dragonsbane]

I prefer Forgotten Realms, myself.....the gods have actual personalities, and the heroes are often just ordinary people who are called upon to do the impossible, and save the world. I've read practically every FR novel ever made, and I wish I could just go there and explore it.......especially the Underdark (lets just assume I'd be a high-level enough to go there without being killed immediately). I even speak Drow....badly.

I dunno about Eberron, I've heard both good AND bad things about it........so I'm not sure what to think yet.

[reality_deviant]

What bad things have you heard? I could sing a ballad of praise for Eberron, so I think I've got the "good" side pretty well covered. The one small gripe my group had was the apparent reliance on the Expanded Psionics Handbook, when we weren't crazy about the smaller 3.0 one. This was easily remedied by not setting the story in the nation of psions. Now we're all good. We've got a gnome artificer (a real Cid type), a Warforged paladin of the Silver Flame, and a changeling wizard/rogue information dealer. I'm hoping to recruit one or two more players, although I may keep this group small and try to recruit some actual females to game with me on another night. All the chicks play Vampire almost exclusively. It's time I showed them the light...

Anyway, I totally dig FR too, and I know sometimes the ordinary folk are called on, but there're so many EXTRORDINARY folk to be called on (*cough* Elminster *cough* Storm Silverhand), PLUS those personality-laden gods, that the novels are fantastic, but the games can be anti-climactic because there are soo many people fighting the world's evils, it seems to diminish the PC's deeds somewhat.

Just one of those high-level Faerunian NPC's could probably lay waste to Eberron...it wouldn't take too much...

[Elminster_Amaur]

First off, Elminster is only level 29, and that is nowhere near 40th level. Besides, there are also the evil gods, so without the good gods helping the good guys, the evil gods and the evil guys would always win.

[reality_deviant]

First off, Elminster is only level 29, and that is nowhere near 40th level. Besides, there are also the evil gods, so without the good gods helping the good guys, the evil gods and the evil guys would always win.

Are you sure? Lessee here...20 levels of wizard, 1 level of fighter, 2 levels of rogue, 5 or 6 levels of archmage...I would almost agree with you, but he's got some cleric levels in there somewhere, too, and that still doesn't take into account the fact that he is a Chosen of Mystra, with all the nifty abilities that entails, putting his actual CR probably higher than his character level.

some of the bad guy groups are so silly/backstabbing/nefarious that they are just barely a threat anyway. The Simbul has kept the Red Wizards of Thay out of Aglarond for years. Yes, one woman has triumphed time and again over an entire organization, practically an entire nation. I will not deny that this is incredibly, ass-kickingly awesome. She is an inspiration to her people, and even to a character I have played. I'm just saying that it's nice to have another, seperate setting, wherein the characters, at mid-level, are their own best allies.

The gods are cool, the good ones AND the evil ones. Mystra rocks, Gond's a big freak, and Cyric is such a twisted sonuvabeeyatch...

I mean, Ravenloft is a cool setting, too, but would you want all your games to take place there? I certainly wouldn't. Low magic, high casualties, and basically no hope for the powers of Good. A little on the depressing side, but great for those dark, gritty games where you must really use your wits to survive.

More settings = more options = Good Idea

[Dragonsbane]

Elminster is MUCH higher level......like 37 or so.......his CR is 39 anyway...
(at least 3 cleric levels, probably more...)

Mystra kicks ass, I'm making a Mystra sprite right now:D

Bane was l33t, and Cyric is such a fun villain....the sick, crazy bastard!

I LOVE the idea of a backstory for Lolth and her offspring......they go into so much more detail

Drizzt pwns all, period. No exceptions!

and Chosen of Mystra kick ass, period. No exceptions! Even though Storm Silverhand is portrayed as a real bitch in some of the books......especially the ones about the Time of Troubles.

I get a feeling that if Szass Tam wanted to, he could eliminate the Simbul........but then Elminster would go beat him into a pile of dust.

and once the drow learn to work together, the surface world is doomed.......think how powerful they've gotten down there!

[AndyBloodredMage]

The drow have as much a chance of working together as the entire surface world does.

[Lycanthrope]

Let us compare Szassy-baby to Our local resident Witch Queen:
Szass: Necromancer10/Red Wizard 17/Archmage 2. His major plusses: He's a lich, making him hard to put out of order permanently. He's also, technically, got better stats than she does. On the other hand, she's got him in levels, and his stats aren't THAT much better. She is a chosen of mystra, meaning that many spells that Szass could use against her are incapable of harming her, most notibly in this case: finger of death. Niether of them know epic magic, so its a moot point. Szass has major artifacts. Simbule has some very handy supernatural abilities, and a couple of spells to her name. Both rule a major country, and both could probably single-handedly take out the entire army of the other country*, so that is also a moot point. I'd say it would be a close match. Szass Tam has the entire Dr. Doom air about him, and it seems so, like the Batman v. Doom scenario, he'd only face Simbule in a situation where he was guarenteed victory by some circumstance or another. That is difficult to pull off, but possible (as my own epic sorcerer just discovered). Technically, the advantage in a straight battle goes to the Simbule, but as I said before, this one is a roll of the dice matter. Both of them are close enough to one another's power that a battle between them would be devestating indeed, and either could emerge on top.

*With Thay, however, its simply because they fear her to no end.

[reality_deviant]

I love that the mere thought of facing the Witch-Queen causes many of the lesser Red Wizards to pass out cold.

Lycanthrope, what is your epic sorceror like? Feats, spells, character tidbits, crazily earth-shaking things your DM has let you get away with on account of being an epic character...the only epic level char I've played is a sorceress, and I'm interested to hear about your experiences.

[Dante]

I would imagine he has Automatic Quicken Spell for everything. That feat, combined with Multispell makes spellcasters the magical equivalent of machineguns.

Even at lower levels, a wizard/sorcerer with maximized DCs can burn flights of dragons from the sky. (Chain Spell/Twin Spell/Improved Metamgic from Incantatrix class). Epic level casters... hoo boy. Genocide.

[Elminster_Amaur]

But in the Forgotten Realms Campaign setting, they list Elminster's level as 29, as well as in the Baldur's Gate strategy guide. I woudn't argue that he isn't in the 30's to 40's, but those sources say he isn't.

[Dragonsbane]

I just know my epic-level wizard wiped out an entire army of Zhentarim enhanced warriors.......don't ask what the concept behind them was, they were sorta half-golem "cyborgs" with heavy levelage in Fighter and Barbarian classes. It was the coolest battle ever.......like shooting fish in a bucket!:D

nope, I got my data straight from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting and the Epic Level Handbook......trust me on this!

by the way, Elminster, which was your favorite Baldur's Gate character?

Szass Tam wouldn't just attack the Simbul, and Thay is a much stronger country than Aglarond......think about it, the Red Wizards vs. some foresters....no contest there, and the Aglarondians depend entirely on their Witch-Queen for protection.

Szass is good at planning, and uses complex plots and strategies to win. This isn't Dr. Doom vs. Batman, this is Dr. Doom vs. Superman......the Simbul often looses her temper and does stupid stuff, though her sheer power often helps her pull through anyway. Szass would get her into a situation where she couldn't win, but nobody (especially Elminster) would suspect him of doing it. He would also find a way to keep her from being ressurected.....he's a clever lich, he'll find a way. If you use the Epic Level Handbook (ELH) versions of them, both know Epic-Level magic.....the battle gets more interesting, but I still see Tam winning, even if the Witches of Rashemen get involved (stupid, nosy, hathrans!)

[Lycanthrope]

I'm a newer epic level spellcaster. Yes, the automatic quicken is on my to-do list but I've only had two feats since 20, and those was Epic Spellcasting and something I haven't picked yet (I need to get quicken spell before I can make it automatic, so I might do that) And the thing that placed me over would have killed anyone (a god was involved).
Anyway, the exact level thing is currently... Sor13/Dragon's Deciple (altered)10/Sword of Riteousness1. The last of them is an exalted class, basically giving me an exalted feat per level. The altercation in Dragon's Deciple was my DM's suggestion, and, in his opinion, evened the playing field, basically, there were three out of the ten levels that I did not advance spell-wise, but for the rest, I did. I'm also a bit of a cross breed. I started out as a Fire Genasi (for those of you unfamiliar, they are to Efreet what Aasimar are to Celestrials, essentially, part fire elemental), and through dragon's deciple ended up as a half-dragon fire genasi (but not a werewolf, ironically), with what is essentially 20 sorcerer levels, and a nasty vorpal bastard sword I picked up to boot. Being a naturally fire-inclined entity, Most of my spells are fire-based, although I have mixed up with one or two ice spells and what spell list is complete without chain lightning? Meteor Swarm is my new favorite toy.

But with all of this power, I enter a demiplane where a god has rigged it to naturally deal subdual damage every turn until I pass out and I wake to find myself in antimagic shackles... *sigh* there's no fighting the DM.

[secretskull]

I hate to disturb your conversation but does anyone know where i can download the full dm guide and monster manual and if you can find it the players guide

[Dragonsbane]

Lycanthrope.....if you had a few item creation feats you could get yourself a nice Ring of Regeneration, very useful in these situations! Or cast Plane Shift and get the hell out of there...

[Elminster_Amaur]

by the way, Elminster, which was your favorite Baldur's Gate character?
Minsc. Minsc all the way. That is, if you mean playable characters in the original Baldur's Gate. If you are including all characters, then Elminster, obviously. I tried to kill him on my first playthrough...even with the instant kill cheat, it didn't work. Drizzt, is a far second, and then Minsc, as he is still cool, but El and Drizzt are better.

[AndyBloodredMage]

Secretskull, if you want the books your best bet is kazaa, most sites that I would use to download it have been shut down or whatnot.

[Dante]

I'm a newer epic level spellcaster. Yes, the automatic quicken is on my to-do list but I've only had two feats since 20, and those was Epic Spellcasting and something I haven't picked yet (I need to get quicken spell before I can make it automatic, so I might do that) And the thing that placed me over would have killed anyone (a god was involved).
Anyway, the exact level thing is currently... Sor13/Dragon's Deciple (altered)10/Sword of Riteousness1. The last of them is an exalted class, basically giving me an exalted feat per level. The altercation in Dragon's Deciple was my DM's suggestion, and, in his opinion, evened the playing field, basically, there were three out of the ten levels that I did not advance spell-wise, but for the rest, I did. I'm also a bit of a cross breed. I started out as a Fire Genasi (for those of you unfamiliar, they are to Efreet what Aasimar are to Celestrials, essentially, part fire elemental), and through dragon's deciple ended up as a half-dragon fire genasi (but not a werewolf, ironically), with what is essentially 20 sorcerer levels, and a nasty vorpal bastard sword I picked up to boot. Being a naturally fire-inclined entity, Most of my spells are fire-based, although I have mixed up with one or two ice spells and what spell list is complete without chain lightning? Meteor Swarm is my new favorite toy.

Improved Metamagic is good too. Trust me, when you're throwing Chained Twinned Heightened Split Ray Disintegrates, at caster level 40+ and with feat rods, life is good.

But with all of this power, I enter a demiplane where a god has rigged it to naturally deal subdual damage every turn until I pass out and I wake to find myself in antimagic shackles... *sigh* there's no fighting the DM.

Shapechange into a lich, undead are immune to subdual, tell the god to fuck off and die, kill him, make him your bitch, and fuck the DM to hell and back with your new slave.

[Dragonsbane]

how can you make the god your slave if you kill it? Undead god-carcasses aren't good for much, unless this is one of those egotistical gods with a HUGE avatar...

[Lycanthrope]

All of these things assume I have certain spells. Well, apparently healing spells don't work with subdual damage, and there was nothing I could have done to evade that situation. As I said, the DM wanted it to happen, there's no use fighting the DM. We did eventually escape, after an hour of being tortured by a villain we had previously deposed of, and our own revenge upon him was quite nasty, yet apt (he was a demon, and we sent him into the sea of holy water in the first level of celestria). Yeah, I'd rather have improved spell capacity than improved metamagic, but I'm short on feat slots. The one unfortunate thing about multiclassing and prestige classes is that because I'm technically only a 13th level sorcer, I don't have access to epic bonus feats. Don't get me wrong, being a half dragon has its perks, but feat slots are a scarcity which I must use wisely. But my biggest advantage will be epic spells. I have a talent for designing them, and have a few of great power, one, (which will be suprisingly easy to cast) which will cause destruction on such a wide scale that it will practically equate a mid-sized tactical nuke (conjur a meteor, transport it to the stratosphere, and allow it to fall, letting natural physics take its course).

[Dante]

All of these things assume I have certain spells. Well, apparently healing spells don't work with subdual damage, and there was nothing I could have done to evade that situation. As I said, the DM wanted it to happen, there's no use fighting the DM. We did eventually escape, after an hour of being tortured by a villain we had previously deposed of, and our own revenge upon him was quite nasty, yet apt (he was a demon, and we sent him into the sea of holy water in the first level of celestria). Yeah, I'd rather have improved spell capacity than improved metamagic, but I'm short on feat slots. The one unfortunate thing about multiclassing and prestige classes is that because I'm technically only a 13th level sorcer, I don't have access to epic bonus feats. Don't get me wrong, being a half dragon has its perks, but feat slots are a scarcity which I must use wisely. But my biggest advantage will be epic spells. I have a talent for designing them, and have a few of great power, one, (which will be suprisingly easy to cast) which will cause destruction on such a wide scale that it will practically equate a mid-sized tactical nuke (conjur a meteor, transport it to the stratosphere, and allow it to fall, letting natural physics take its course).

Shapechange is an amazingly useful spell ,you should have it. And as logn character levels > 20, you can get epic feats, no matter what, barring the skill/feat requirements.

[AndyBloodredMage]

Well, apparently healing spells don't work with subdual damage
What do you mean by this? Healing spells are effective against subdual and lethal damage simultanously, that is if you have 3 points of subdual damage and 3 points of lethal damage and heal for 3 points, all of your damage is healed. Was this some sort of super subdual damage that cheats the laws of the planes?

[Dante]

What do you mean by this? Healing spells are effective against subdual and lethal damage simultanously, that is if you have 3 points of subdual damage and 3 points of lethal damage and heal for 3 points, all of your damage is healed. Was this some sort of super subdual damage that cheats the laws of the planes?

DM fiat. Go figure.

[Jaguar]

I thought subdual damage is damage to your hit points like lethal damage, but instead of killing you it knocks you unconcious. Examples of subdual weapons are any non-monk's fists and saps. Healing doesn't affect subdual damage because it technically isn't harmful damage.

[Dante]

I thought subdual damage is damage to your hit points like lethal damage, but instead of killing you it knocks you unconcious. Examples of subdual weapons are any non-monk's fists and saps. Healing doesn't affect subdual damage because it technically isn't harmful damage.

It does, because it's still damage, and healing spells are explicitly stated as affecting both normal and subdual damage at once.

[Void Mage: Christman]

HeY, I'm a Shadowrun RPer that wants to get into D&D. I was thinking of making my first character as close to an evil Black Mage Necromancer as I could. What books would I want to buy to get the full potential for my character?

[AndyBloodredMage]

Okay let me explain subdual damage. It works as thus. As you gain more points of subdual damage, your total amount of subdual damage goes up. When your total amount of subdual damage is greater than your current amount of hit points, you are unconscious. When you are healed, you are healed for both normal damage and your total amount of subdual damage is decreased by that amount as well.

[Elminster_Amaur]

Buy? Download, and you shall pay much less :thief:
Well, you could try the Player's Handbook, and Tome and Blood.
If you were going to DM, I'd suggest getting the DMG and the Monster Manual.

Edit: This was meant for the void mage guy.

[Lycanthrope]

As to the healing thing, all I know was that the Party NPC Cleric shouted in the middle of it that he "didn't have any spells to heal this type of damage." And yes, I know I can get epic feats, its a matter of how many epic feats I can get. A level 21 sorcerer gets nearly twice as many feats as a 11th level sorcerer 10th level something else. Bonus feats. I get none of those. I'm thinking about taking a few levels in wizard just to allow me a few bonus feats, and catch up on my serious lack of metamagic feats (I have several, but they are esoteric. Silent Spell, Still Spell, Replace Energy [fire]; Augment Energy [fire], and Purify Spell). But I've got a kick-ass prestige class I'm almost able to get now: Planeshifter, which will drop me my own demiplane by the end of it (a nice convenience). But after that, I may just go wizard for a while although it would be a little out of character (in character, I've shown some small dislike of wizards in general), but I feel the call of the munchkin, and I really could use some more metamagic feats.

[AndyBloodredMage]

Planeshifter is in Manual of the Planes, correct? I remember reading on a prestige class that could create an ever-expanding demiplane by level 10.

[Dante]

If you feel the call of the munchkin, Incantatrix is good for you. Free Improved metamagic, insatnt metamagic, immune to energy drain, etc, and you geta free specialization in abjuration. If you're a sorcerer, that means boatloads more spells for you.

[Lycanthrope]

Don't know of that particular prestige class. Is there any link to it online or other such method you could get it to me?

Edit: and yes, it is from manual of the planes. Nice, huh? Not to mention the ability to planeshift at will (handy) or the ability to move large chunks of land from plane to plane.

[Dante]

Don't know of that particular prestige class. Is there any link to it online or other such method you could get it to me?

Edit: and yes, it is from manual of the planes. Nice, huh? Not to mention the ability to planeshift at will (handy) or the ability to move large chunks of land from plane to plane.

Incantatrix is from Magic of Faerun... I consider it amazingly powerful primarily because of improved metamagic... One of the few ways to get an epic feat at non-epic levels. Also, since your powerful enemies will be outsiders, etc, his fcous against them wil lbe very helpful.

[Dragonsbane]

and this is why our DM wanted to sicc large numbers of Muu spores and Colossi on us.....we had an incantatrix, so our DM killed her repeatedly.

Anyone with the epic level handbook should be aware that powerful enemies are often more than just outsiders.......most sane people would be terrified at the thought of battling a great wyrm prismatic dragon...

[Void Mage: Christman]

What's the best site for downloading the different manuals for D&D? Mainly Third Ed stuff.

[Dragonsbane]

I'd reccomend you buy the actual books.

[Dante]

I'd reccomend you buy the actual books.

He may not have the money. I didn't.

Use Kazaa if you want.

[Lycanthrope]

Ugh... okay, unfortunately I haven't either money, nor magic of faerun, nor does my DM have it. Okay, I'm doing a web-search. Wish me luck.

Edit: Yay, found it, thanks to boulian search. Random Fact: there's a porn movie company known as Incantrix which takes up most of the web.

[Dragonsbane]

I have Magic of Faerun!:D

try figuring out what incantatrix/incantrix means...it's from Latin words, and I'll give a cookie to whoever figures it out first!

[Lycanthrope]

cant is latin for sing or chant. Incant has come to be associated with spells since it it is connotive of trapping within a song, (just as the english grammaric equivolent, enchant, we see ensnare, encircle, etc.) the addition of -rix is a stumper, but Matrix, which is derived from the root "Mat-" meaning mother, and the technical definition of Matrix is place of origin.

[Dante]

cant is latin for sing or chant. Incant has come to be associated with spells since it it is connotive of trapping within a song, (just as the english grammaric equivolent, enchant, we see ensnare, encircle, etc.) the addition of -rix is a stumper, but Matrix, which is derived from the root "Mat-" meaning mother, and the technical definition of Matrix is place of origin.

The designers might have been thinking of "Incantation", when picturing this Abjuration based class, as most abjurations (wards, seals, etc.) require much mumbling and moaning. Then they found "Incantator" too troublesome to pronounce and too prosaic, and decided to call it "Incantatrix" for flavour, and to promote sexual equality.

Of course, this is just wild conjecture...

[Dragonsbane]

the "trix" ending to a latin word indicates a female performing that function. For example, a male warrior is a bellator, but a female warrior is a bellatrix

just a tidbit of information:)

[Magic E-Mail Chicken]

Well, that brings my knowledge of latin up to about 2%.

[Lycanthrope]

So technically I would be a Incantator. Good to know.

Edit: I brought this up with my DM, and he said that Incantrix sounded good, but that I also ought to consider Cormyrian Warwizard (appropriate, as our party is based in Cormyr). Anyone know about it?

[Earth Mage]

can anyone tell me where i can get a campagin book for D&D third edition, i am a D&D n00b

[Dragonsbane]

Cormyrian War-wizard is in Magic of Faerun......it's a pretty good class.

about the feminine ending to "Incantrix", did any of you know that all clerics of the dwarven goddess of battle (Haela Brightaxe, I think) have a dwarven title that translates to "bloodmaiden"? And this includes the males, too...

[Elminster_Amaur]

a campagin book for D&D third edition
Try your local comic book store. Also, if you can't find a comic book store, you can try Barnes and Nobles or Books-a-Million.

[Dragonsbane]

Barnes & Nobel usually has them...

[Wanghat]

Yeah, Barnes and Noble has a pretty decent supply.

And if you're lucky like me and know someone that works there, you can have them buy it for you and get the hefty employee discount.

[Jinken]

D&D is a great pen and paper RPG if not THE pen and paper RPG. I started playing 2nd edition when I was 5 (Yes 5) as a wizard named Greg.....He's now dead....oh well.... I seriously need to look into 3rd edition fore I'm sure I'm missing out on something big. The problem is I have no one in the city I just moved to play with. So I have 1 question, Is 3rd edition better than 2nd, and if so, how much better?

[Elminster_Amaur]

3rd edition is a vast improvement on 2nd, as they have cut out a lot of needless calculations.

[Lycanthrope]

Review of 3 vs. 3.5:

In version 3, the spells were better

In version 3.5, the classes are better.

Choose your pick.

[Dragonsbane]

I learned both from a mad Monk of the Long Death named Grimgnaw, an insane dwarf who taught me the ways of the D20.....may the gods of DnD preserve his poor, twisted soul.

[reality_deviant]

3e is sooo much of an improvement...gosh, where do I even start?

1.) High Good, Low Bad-In 3rd Edition, there is only adding to your rolls. No subtraction. Your unarmored AC starts at 10, increasing with dexterity bonuses and better armor.Trying to give someone a beatdown with the ol' quarterstaff? Roll a d20, add your attack bonus. If it beats the opponent's Armor Class, it hits. Want to disarm that nasty trap? Roll a d20, add your Disable Device skill, and see if it beats the difficulty.

2.)6 Abilities, not 5- Yes, I know there have always been six abilities in D&D, but, let's face it, 2nd ed was not exactly about the Charisma. It was more about sweaty guys in armor duking it out, pausing only to check various charts to see how they were faring. Now there are skills like Diplomacy, Gather Information, Bluff, Intimidate...yes, it is actually possible to gain experience without slaying everything that moves.

3)No Woojy Crit Table-In the same place the weapon's weight and damage is described, its critical threat range and crit multiplier is listed also. A weapon will deal 2x, 3x, or even 4x damage on a critical hit. If you critically miss? Well, I believe the DM just makes something up.

4.)Every Class Can Survive-If your Constitiution score is above average, you get a bonus to HP. Regardless of whether you are or are not a fighter.

5.)Characters Improve-Every 4 levels, add a point to an ability score of your choice. Now, swinging around that huge broadsword for months at a time can actually make you stronger. Characters can also improve with...

6.) Feats!-A feat is some nifty little ability that further personalizes the character. Power Attack-You can take a penalty to attack, and gain a bonus to damage. Extend Spell-Your spells can last twice as long, if you use a higher-level spell slot to cast from. There are many, manymany feats to choose from, and you gain a feat at least every three levels.

7.)No Race/Class Restrictions-Elves can be bards. Dwarves can be druids. And anyone can be a paladin if he or she so desires.

8.)Sorcerors!-Holy spontaneous spellcasters, Batman! Sorcerors have a fixed amount of spells that they will ever know, but can cast them more frequently, and without preparing them in advance. In terms of sheer firepower, a sorceror could likely overtake a wizard, but the wizard has the definite edge in terms of versatility and flexibility.

Am I leaving something out? Most assuredly. I seriously enjoy third edition, and would reccomend that you at least check it out. If you want to ease in slowly and not jump straight to 3.5, hey, at least you'll save a few bucks picking up all the used 3.0 stuff people are getting rid of.

[Jinken]

Thank you very much. There are a few things I don't like about 3rd, a few I like, and a few that oddly didn't change. I liked the fact that paladins could only be human....it made the class more diverse, but I've also heard of these special classes you can get if you learn the right feats and meet certain requirements. Basically what I get from 3rd is improvement on character diversity. In 2nd you could have 2 wizards level 20. Both may be different but chances are they have the same spells if they both knew what they were doing. I think I will look into 3rd but I haven't heard of 3.5 at all. I should probably look into that too.

[Dragonsbane]

I always thought it didn't make sense that paladins could only be human. I mean, other races have Lawful Good deities too, don't they? And wouldn't those deities have champions of justice, good, and righteousness among their people? I admit, it's hard to take a halfling paladin seriously....but imagine the bold, half-elven champion of Tyr, or the loyal and dedicated dwarven paladin of Moradin, loyalty and honor are not neccessarily a human trait, but one that all races can possess, and it is these traitas that make one truly a paladin.

[Jinken]

I think it was to compensate for the fact that humans get no bonuses to anything. No infra-vision or boosted starting stats. They also die at an earlier age. That's just my opinion though.

[Lycanthrope]

No bonuses? Humans get extra skills and a bonus feat at level one which can put a definite edge on things. All of the races are pretty well balanced, it depends on what your after most, and if anything, humans come off better than most of the core races because of the bonus feat. For instance, I have an NPC human Swashbuckler in one of my campaigns. I wanted to arm him with an Elven Thinblade since it is superior in every respect to a rapier, but also wanted him to have the advantage of weapons focus at first level. Only a human could accomidate both.

[Jinken]

valid points, however we're talking only about 2nd edition. No add ons. Humans don't get any abilities besides the fact they can be any class.

[AndyBloodredMage]

In terms of sheer firepower, a sorceror could likely overtake a wizard, but the wizard has the definite edge in terms of versatility and flexibility.
This is argueable. If a wizard has the wrong spell prepared for the wrong occasion, well then the sorc looks to be more versatile.

[Dante]

This is argueable. If a wizard has the wrong spell prepared for the wrong occasion, well then the sorc looks to be more versatile.

But if the sorc never has a useful spell, he's even more screwed than the wizard.

[Dragonsbane]

yes, and that situation occurs a LOT....the DM likes to throw you into unusual situations....and when you're up against a White Great Wyrm, suddenly that Polar Ray stops looking so useful.....

Wizards can use scrying to discover the weaknesses of their foes, then prepare the correct spells to utterly devastate them. Sorcerors just have to pray that they won't get into a situation where the spells they picked aren't useful. Plus, a wizard can learn all the useful/fun little spells that a sorceror would never have time for, which is why they are IMMENSE fun to play...

[reality_deviant]

See, I love sorcerors. I despise the idea of poring over an arcane text, reading, memorizing, and then when you cast the spell, Poof! It's gone, completely forgotten. I have a hard time wrapping my brain around that one.

I even had a rather heated argument with someone who claimed that a sorceror is a worthless addition to a party if you can have a wizard instead. Heated nerd arguments are extremely amusing to watch, and almost as fun to participate in. It's the geekiest thing ever. Anyway, sorcerors are the big guns, due to their sheer volume of spells, and the super-handy ability to spontaneously use metamagic feats. But wizards are like the Batman of D&D. Give them time to prepare, and they will devastate you, in an ironically personal way, no doubt. But the wizard is likely to run out of spells first, and the sorceror has a wider range of weapons to choose from. Who would prevail? Anybody actually have a sor vs. wiz showdown?

[AndyBloodredMage]

I did. Except it was actually me (the sorc) vs. a ranger and a wizard. Melf's acid arrow and some minor orbs of fire made short work of them both, and I was declared leader of group (this was a lower level fight, like level 3 each.)

[Dragonsbane]

wider range of spells, RD? How so? Don't you mean "more of a certain spell per day?"

[Lycanthrope]

Not more of a certain spell. Thats the biggest mistake. More of a level of spells redily at one's finger tips. I have a favored metamagic feat that my DM apparently found in some tome or another although I haven't pried out of him which one it is, called "Replace Energy" similar to the High Arcana of a similar name. Basically, I choose an energy type upon choosing the spell and any spell I have can be unstantly replaced with that energy. I chose fire, however if I had wanted to be twink about it instead of in character (my character is a pyro), sonic would be a great option to take care of any situation, since there are very few creatures that are immune to its effects.

[AndyBloodredMage]

The feat in question is called energy substitution, and is located in the sourcebook Tomb and Blood. It only works with spells that have an energy source to speak of, though. Thus you could use it on Melf's acid arrow, but not Magic Missile.

[secretskull]

I did. Except it was actually me (the sorc) vs. a ranger and a wizard. Melf's acid arrow and some minor orbs of fire made short work of them both, and I was declared leader of group (this was a lower level fight, like level 3 each.)
of course you won sorcerors are always better in low levels at higher levels wizards are much bettter

[Lycanthrope]

I was using the example to show how the white dragon example can be easily overcome. In my opinion its more fun to be a sorcerer. Why? well, the first reason is because I don't have the proverbial evil DM. My DM is not going to specifically try to kill us by throwing me into a situation for which there is a spell I don't have. Secondly, because I have constantly less to worry about. I don't have to spend vast amounts of time scouring through the players hand book looking for the perfect spell, then worrying about how many spells I have left. Furthermore, even with an Evil DM, I will ALWAYS have those spells that I can count on ready. And as I believe Sosa once said, there is no situation that cannot be resolved with the proper use of fireball. While I could think of a couple, its not like there is only one or two spells that a sorcerer has. One can cover a broad range of spells and abilities for any purpose. For instance, why bother with "spider climb" when "fly" works better. There are very few situations I can think of that, with my broad range of spells, I couldn't overpower. Even a high level wizard would have some problems in a firefight against me as I have more spells per day, and it is unlikely that a smart wizard would arm himself entirely with fighting spells, reducing the spells less than before. True, given proper tactics, he could outmanuver me, however I trust to destructive evocations far more than I trust to subtle enchantments. Fireball will almost always do SOME damage.

[Dante]

The primary gripe I have with sorcerers is their hamstrung use of metamagic feats, and the inability to quicken spells. Plus, wizards get the Scribe Scroll feat free, which favors their stocking up on scrolls and boosting the quantity that way. Wizards also get metamagic and item creation feats, which are always a big plus.

Sorcerer is quantity, wizard is quality. Choose whichever one you like.

[Dragonsbane]

Not more of a certain spell. Thats the biggest mistake. More of a level of spells redily at one's finger tips. I have a favored metamagic feat that my DM apparently found in some tome or another although I haven't pried out of him which one it is, called "Replace Energy" similar to the High Arcana of a similar name. Basically, I choose an energy type upon choosing the spell and any spell I have can be unstantly replaced with that energy. I chose fire, however if I had wanted to be twink about it instead of in character (my character is a pyro), sonic would be a great option to take care of any situation, since there are very few creatures that are immune to its effects.

It's in Magic of Faerun, I have the book and I'm familiar with the feat. Unfortunately, the High Arcana (called Mastery of Elements) works instantly, and the Energy Substitution (which is what it's actually called) is a metamagic feat.....with all of the limitations implied. It's still a kick-ass feat, but I prefer to wait until I get into the Archmage prestige class, and get Mastery of Elements.

Secretskull is absolutely correct, wizards suck at lower levels......then become one of the most powerful classes in the game at higher levels. I enjoy the challenge of surviving through the tedious period of being a weak apprentice, and then achieving ultimate power later on......plus, you gotta love the free feats!:D

As for Dante's statement, quality over quantity......maybe that's why there are so many more epic-level wizards than epic-level sorcerors?

[edit] after reading your last post, Lycanthrope, I have to disagree with you.....evocations are fun, but spell turning is a nice way to make your tactics ineffective.

[Dante]

Elemental substitution is very fun, especially when dealing with pesky bastards using the various elemental resistance/immunity spells.

But my favorite archmage ability is probably arcane fire...

[Dragonsbane]

I prefer Mastery of Elements because it has instant use......but at lower levels, Energy Substitution is great.

arcane fire ain't so hot........trading in one spell (up to 9th level) to deal 1d6 damage per spell level......it's like wasting a 9th level spell slot on a fireball, only with less damage.

[bekeleven]

Can someone PLEASE give me a viable fighter twink in 3.5E? Low level, if possible. My best involves a human with Vow of Poverty- Lotsa fun (Level 20: 11+11+1+7=30 feats!), but I'm looking for better.

[LordTobias]

A viable fighter twink? I'm a pretty big D&D buff and that wording has less than no significance to me whatsoever. Be a little more specific on what you want, and I can help you out here. (I'm guessing you just mean to make a fighter better?...)

Either way, post a response with slightly more specifics, and I shall be your guide.

[Lycanthrope]

Fighters largest advantage is, yes, feats. A few suggestions: take a level of sorcerer and get Dragon's Deciple, take that for ten levels sacrificing some BAB in return for natural armor and incredible boosts in strength. I have "complete warrior" around here somewhere which has a treasure trove of great feats and prestige classes, but I can't seem to find it at the moment.

[bekeleven]

I'm looking for a way, in 3.5E, to make a low-level fighter with some sort of broken abilities- anotherwords, ways to deal massive amounts of damage, as that's what fighters do. All I can think of, besides the "exalted" one (+4 AC level 1!) is one that goes the way of the two-weapon fighter. (TWF, greater TWF...)

[fighter_M]

U should do a campain about the Drow or Dark Elves. There is so much u could do! If u want to know more just ask me,K?! They also have books. (Forgoten Realms). :bmage:

[Jinken]

I'm pretty sure that almost every person that plays D&D often has had a campain involving Drow or Dark Elves.