Scientology sees flood of former members speak out.

[bluestarultor]

http://www.tampabay.com/news/scientology/strength-in-their-numbers-more-church-of-scientology-defectors-come/1023717

They are stepping forward — from Dallas and Denver, Portland, Las Vegas, Montana — talking about what happened, to them and their friends, during their years in the Church of Scientology.

Jackie Wolff wept as she recalled the chaotic night she was ordered to stand at a microphone in the mess hall and confess her "crimes" in front of 300 fellow workers, many jeering and heckling her.

Gary Morehead dredged up his recollection of Scientology leader David Miscavige punishing venerable church leaders by forcing them to live out of tents for days, wash with a garden hose and use an open latrine.

Steve Hall replayed his memory of a meeting when Miscavige grabbed the heads of two church executives and knocked them together. One came away with a bloody ear.

Mark Fisher remembered precisely what he told Miscavige after the punches stopped and Fisher touched his head, looked at his palm and saw blood.

These and other former Scientology staffers are talking now, inspired and emboldened by the raw revelations of four defectors from the church's executive ranks who broke years of silence in stories published recently by the St. Petersburg Times.

Those behind-the-scenes accounts from Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder, the highest officials ever to leave Scientology, were buttressed by detailed revelations of highly placed former managers Amy Scobee and Tom De Vocht.

Now their stories have prompted other former Scientology veterans to go public about physical and mental abuses they say they witnessed and endured.

Some want to support and defend the initial four, whom church representatives labeled as liars attempting a coup. Others say they feel more secure now that Rathbun, Rinder and the others are on the record with their unprecedented accounts of life on the inside.

But fear still prevents many defectors from talking. For every former church staffer willing to speak out, one or two more refused.

Those who talked confirm the earlier defectors' stories of erratic, dehumanizing treatment and provide a deeper view into the controlling environment in which members of the religious order known as the Sea Org live and work.

There's way more article than I can post here, but it has a lot of eye-openers.

[Ravashak]

I think this will turn out to be a far bigger blow to Scientology than what happened in France a coupe days back. As said, this should also provide a motivation for those formerly afraid to come out, and thus expose Scientology even more.

[Viridis]

Wow, that guy in charge (Miscavige) is a real psycho.

[Jagos]

I still find it ironic how a religion started because of a sci fi writer...

[krogothwolf]

Apparently it was started on a bet or some such thing.

[Magus]

Final Blackout was a better book than any of his more traditional space-travel sci-fi novels, ironically.

Someone should start a religion based on Kurt Vonnegut's writings, that would be way more wacky (and fun).

[Funka Genocide]

I find the tone of this article a bit grating, as all these people are being treated solely as victims of a single person, instead of self inflicted victims of stupidity.

The kind of mentality that makes a person stand there and get slapped around by some asshole is the kind of mentality that wants to be a victim. I really don't care much about their stories of abuse.

The whole industry of scientology needs to be torn down as the absolute bullshit that it is, not just one guy.

I find it very hard to feel sorry for a grown man who won't at least call the police after being assaulted. And that one guy that left his wife... wow. Sometimes you just have to be a totalitarian stereotype of a man, and in a situation where your wife is enthralled by a cult... well yeah that's one of those times.

[stefan]

I find the tone of this article a bit grating, as all these people are being treated solely as victims of a single person, instead of self inflicted victims of stupidity.

The kind of mentality that makes a person stand there and get slapped around by some asshole is the kind of mentality that wants to be a victim. I really don't care much about their stories of abuse.

The whole industry of scientology needs to be torn down as the absolute bullshit that it is, not just one guy.

I find it very hard to feel sorry for a grown man who won't at least call the police after being assaulted. And that one guy that left his wife... wow. Sometimes you just have to be a totalitarian stereotype of a man, and in a situation where your wife is enthralled by a cult... well yeah that's one of those times.

oh boy oh boy oh boy oh boy.


can we delay the inevitable shitstorm for a bit while I go grab some popcorn?

[Premonitions]

I find the tone of this article a bit grating, as all these people are being treated solely as victims of a single person, instead of self inflicted victims of stupidity.

The kind of mentality that makes a person stand there and get slapped around by some asshole is the kind of mentality that wants to be a victim. I really don't care much about their stories of abuse.

The whole industry of scientology needs to be torn down as the absolute bullshit that it is, not just one guy.

I find it very hard to feel sorry for a grown man who won't at least call the police after being assaulted. And that one guy that left his wife... wow. Sometimes you just have to be a totalitarian stereotype of a man, and in a situation where your wife is enthralled by a cult... well yeah that's one of those times.

I love ya Funky, I really do, But DAMN son.

But just to clarify, are you thinking that this shit happened AFTER they expressed doubt and/to tried to leave?? Because I think what they're talking about is part and parcel of the normal religious practices of Scientology, that is, they were brainwashed into wanting to be treated as such, and somehow came to their senses and discovered the negative impact it had on their lives. Furthermore any doubts they might have had have alwayws been silenced by the swift and destructive legal,social, political, an monetary, even sometimes physical retaliation of the churches membership and leadership....

[bluestarultor]

I find the tone of this article a bit grating, as all these people are being treated solely as victims of a single person, instead of self inflicted victims of stupidity.

The kind of mentality that makes a person stand there and get slapped around by some asshole is the kind of mentality that wants to be a victim. I really don't care much about their stories of abuse.

The whole industry of scientology needs to be torn down as the absolute bullshit that it is, not just one guy.

I find it very hard to feel sorry for a grown man who won't at least call the police after being assaulted. And that one guy that left his wife... wow. Sometimes you just have to be a totalitarian stereotype of a man, and in a situation where your wife is enthralled by a cult... well yeah that's one of those times.

You're forgetting about all the mental conditioning along the way. An abused spouse doesn't leave out of fear. They get conditioned into obedience and submission. People in the article describe Scientology the same way.

That's not to say that the article should be all about the one guy, but it's got the focus on him because those stories are the most damaging.

Frankly, I feel a hell of a lot more sympathy for the people speaking out than I feel anything else concerning the article. Yeah, it's got its focus on the psycho in charge, but we're talking about extreme emotional abuse, here, on top of his extreme physical abuse. I'm sorry, but having to "confess your sins" in front of 300-400 people who heckle you? Shit, some Christian religions don't even have you confess to a single priest who keeps his cool even if you've killed someone.

These people were brainwashed, hypnotized, abused on scales one wouldn't think even humanly possible, and when they finally manage to break away, they have to leave their families and loved ones, and when they speak out they're told they're all liars as an additional slap in the face, and you don't feel any sympathy at all?

Tell you what. You go through an incredibly emotionally turbulent time and have someone come to you with a promise of pulling you out of it, and they do. Stick with them, because they're officially your new best friend, and you depend on them. Get involved in the stuff they do, go through a ton of indoctrination, much of it designed to de-humanize you slowly, but surely, and see if you don't continue to put up with more and more because "it's only a little bit worse." Have them isolate you from anyone who disagrees with you or could help get you out because they're "detrimental" to you. Do this for years and see how you end up, and then when something happens to make you absolutely snap and leave, have them take away everything that's important to you: your family, your loved ones, even your credibility. That's what these people went through.

Better yet, been in the armed services? Same process. They get you in, pummel your ego into submission, and train you to do stuff and put up with stuff you never would have before. But then when you leave the military, they strip you of your rank, burn your records, make sure you never see anyone you met there ever again, and when you try to tell anyone about your training or what war is like, they come out with videos showing soldiers getting pedicures and their guns shooting flowers and rainbows to "prove" that you're full of bullshit.




I mean, I'm sorry to tear into you like this, but you really don't seem to understand the process behind this. These people aren't all stupid. A lot of them are successful, intelligent people who got lured in and brainwashed over a matter of years by a system that's very hard and damaging to leave and is willing to break the law to shut people up. Some of them were born into it and don't know anything else, and I've read articles with interviews from people like that who have left and were thrown out without any of their family or friends behind them and nowhere to go. Scientology is structured like a cult, and I'd say it's probably the most dangerous one on Earth. Fighting them is incredibly difficult, because they will use every resource they have to destroy you.

[Tev]

Fighting them is incredibly difficult, because they will use every resource they have to destroy you.I remember the article on how they broke the IRS and got their status as a religion. That was some masterful work.

[Funka Genocide]

people who let themselves get brainwashed are pussies.

discuss

(Remember I was in the military, I know all about mental conditioning and social engineering. I also know that you've still got to drink the cool-aid, so to speak. I would expand on this but I'm reading Dr. McNinja and really, my explanation should be self evident. These people are victimized because they failed to develop a proper self image for whatever reason, yeah it sucks they got beat up but its in the same vein as a young woman strolling through a dark city alley wearing lingerie. She doesn't deserve to be assaulted, but if you hear about it happening you can't help but think "wow what was she thinking." What I find most disturbing about this is that people always need a victim to point out something is wrong. Like the fact that its a crazy fucked up psycho cult isn't bad enough, no we need stories of some jerk off getting slapped around because he's too spineless to live his own life.)

Would also like to point out that I'm not trying to be combative or argumentative for the sake of idle chit chat here, I'm just somewhat familiar with the concept of mental indoctrination and I know that it's by no means a one way street. You can maintain your individuality even in the worst of circumstances. Now I've never been subject to 10 years in a POW camp, but there are people who have been, and while I'm sure they have scars that last their entire lives, some of them still managed to salvage a life after those experiences. To me, getting beat on by some crazy old fuck because you want to feel warm and special in a cold, cold universe is a far cry from insurmountable mental anguish.

People need to grow the fuck up and take responsibility for their own and their families lives.

furthermore, I resent being labeled a "troll" on this topic, as I'm being quite honest here. I simply disagree with the prevailing sentiment that these people are doing something brave, heroic or useful.

[krogothwolf]

people who let themselves get brainwashed are pussies.


That's a little narrow minded to call people that have that happen to as pussies. That'd be like saying everyone who gets addicted to something is a pussy.

Being brainwashed doesn't mean you're a pussy or a wuss. It could be a handful of things. Personalty, Will Power, lack of knowledge, fear. Being afraid doesn't make you a pussy or a wuss either, its a natural feeling. Kids growing up in a Scientology family are brainwashed from birth. That doesn't make them pussy. There are also subtle manipulations that happen and you might not even notice. Brainwashing is an art and it takes skill to be able to do it. I think labeling people who get brainwashed as pussies is a little crud and wrong.

[Funka Genocide]

Being afraid doesn't make you a pussy, letting fear control your life does though.

These people are, through personal weakness, in search of some great big answer to the reason they're breathing. Much the same as anyone searching for a "faith." They are incapable of providing their own answers, and as such they cherish their ignorance to the point where they put themselves in completely ridiculous situations.

It just so happens that they signed up for one of the most usurious and abusive "faiths" extant. They likely did this out of some misguided attempt at originality or enlightenment, ironcially so because it's highly unlikely they truly understand the definition of either state of being.

Also yes, people that develop a life altering addiction also fall under the category of "pussy."

But if you prefer I can use a less slanderous term, like coward.

[Tev]

Being afraid doesn't make you a pussy, letting fear control your life does though.

Also yes, people that develop a life altering addiction also fall under the category of "pussy."

But if you prefer I can use a less slanderous term, like coward.Admittedly, this is a pretty good and solid philosophy as long as its practitioners temper it with compassion or, at last are willing to recognize the inherent weakness of a lack there of.

In all reality labeling failures as pussies and cowards in an attempt to shame them into getting better isn't the right way. They are already at rock bottom and have nowhere to go but up really.

[Funka Genocide]

well, were I addressing them directly I'm sure I'd use different language, I'm just using the vernacular as a mean to convey my disapproval.

Its not an attempt to shame anyone, since they probably don't read these forums, ya dig?

Oh and I'd just like to point out that the term Rock Bottom (as used by 12 step programs) is an entirely subjective state. One can never externally define rock bottom so really, it only occurs when they start moving up. Without a rock bottom however, people can conceivably plummet forever, which is the worst case scenario.

[Tev]

Oh I understand completely. I was just pointing out the weakness in the ideology.

Personally, I don’t understand how people can fall for a cult but that’s because no cult has done that good a job trying to indoctrinate me. I’m a really bad mark anyway since I’m not stuck in any existential quandaries, having any crisis of faith, or suffering from any emotional hardships that would make me easier to prey on.

[bluestarultor]

Being afraid doesn't make you a pussy, letting fear control your life does though.

These people are, through personal weakness, in search of some great big answer to the reason they're breathing. Much the same as anyone searching for a "faith." They are incapable of providing their own answers, and as such they cherish their ignorance to the point where they put themselves in completely ridiculous situations.

It just so happens that they signed up for one of the most usurious and abusive "faiths" extant. They likely did this out of some misguided attempt at originality or enlightenment, ironcially so because it's highly unlikely they truly understand the definition of either state of being.

Also yes, people that develop a life altering addiction also fall under the category of "pussy."

But if you prefer I can use a less slanderous term, like coward.

You know, Scientology has a process for other religions, too. They start off proclaiming their universal compatibility and then slowly whittle away at it, lead people away from where they came from, forbid them from practicing their old faith, etc.

Personally, I know what it's like to suffer from an addiction, too. I had a severe Internet addiction at one point and actually failed out of my first college because it really got that bad my second semester. But then I was alone and had no other support, since my roommate was quite frankly increasingly emotionally abusive as time went on and was always around to unload on me. I've always been a very independent person, but when you're under a lot of stress, you look for places to provide comfort. I was in a high-profile school, with a poor living environment, and nowhere to turn. I got more religious than I'd ever been before in my life for that year and delved into Gaia to forget about how miserable I was. If there had been someone I could have turned to, you bet your pants I would have.

If that makes me a pussy, by God, yes, I am a 5'9" fucking vagina. People do stuff they never would have done before when things are down for them because they're miserable and want a way out. Now that I'm back in a better situation, my grades are fantastic and I'm pretty much all my teachers' favorite student and have a reputation for doing amazing work.

[Funka Genocide]

well if it makes you feel better you may replace every instance of the term pussy in this thread with "emotionally vulnerable person."

(not that it'd be accurate, but I mean if it makes you feel better...)

[Tev]

well if it makes you feel better you may replace every instance of the term pussy in this thread with "emotionally vulnerable person."Just a quick aside...

Actually, there was really no way to word it (trust me I tried). Equating women’s sex parts with emotional vulnerability was most likely not the best of talking points for you.

[Nikose Tyris]

@most of thread: I can't really see how it's possible to buy into this cult. Just a quick look marks it as so flammingly stupid that no one would really buy it.

@troll: Ha, that was pretty effective.

[Tev]

@most of thread: I can't really see how it's possible to buy into this cult. Just a quick look marks it as so flammingly stupid that no one would really buy it.If I came to you and told you that my religion told a tale of a woman who got pregnant and did not give birth until twenty years later, then finally birthed a large rock which she broke into a hundred small pieces and planted, and then from each piece sprouted a fully grown adult man, would you buy into my religion? If you did then you’d be Hindu.

Or if I told tales of water turning to blood and people turning to salt or miraculous healings or resurrections? Sounds kinda odd to me but we Christians think it’s so.

When you look at most religions at face value, especially some of the dead ones like the Greek/Roman, Egyptian, or Norse mythologies, they all sound flamingly stupid. That doesn’t make them any worse for it.

What’s at issue here is not the dumb crap Scientology teaches to explain how the world works to its followers. The problem is how the cult treats its members and how it milks them for all they have physically, emotionally, and financially before spitting them out even worse off than they were to begin with.

[Nikose Tyris]

Actually I call most religions a nice pile of tomfoolery, at least in the organized view. [Also, Hindus kick ass.]

Edit: Also, I'm more willing to buy a man growing from a rock then Alien ghosts.

Nonedit:

But the end of your post about the 'dumb crap Scientology teaches', that's the part I agree with most. The way it abuses it's members is disgusting.

[synkr0nized]

So, are other Scientologists denouncing this guy or what?

[Viridis]

I don't think they are, given that he leads the organization. I think the main response has been to call the people who are coming forward liars.

[Tev]

Edit: Also, I'm more willing to buy a man growing from a rock then Alien ghosts.Really? Because I can suspend disbelief easier when confronted with the idea that aliens with properties unknown to me start doing crap on Earth as opposed to the idea that humans can be grown from rocks since I live here on this planet where it has been shown to be not at all the case for thousands of years.

EDIT: Long story short, I know people don't grow from rocks. On the other hands, aliens are aliens...they can maybe do all kinds of things!

[Funka Genocide]

Just a quick aside...

Actually, there was really no way to word it (trust me I tried). Equating women’s sex parts with emotional vulnerability was most likely not the best of talking points for you.


dude if you don't understand the definition of "pussy" as used in modern american english as apart from genitalia then I don't hold out much hope of getting any point across to you.

Don't really see much in the way of "trolling" on my part. I am simply stating the difference between being an unwitting victim (like someone stabs you while you're pumping gas) and a willing part of an entire system which exists to victimize. (like a cult.)

It's much easier to brush over the reality of the situation and assume you're on the moral high ground by being appalled by this mundane abuse of willing supplicants than it is to point out the actual, systemic problem with a frighteningly large portion of humanity.

It's like the human soul is a page torn out of a Mad Libs book, only some people never got the instructions on how to play. So everyone is walking around with their own unique hodgepodge of nonsense sentence fragments, wondering how the hell they're supposed to make sense of it all.

A fully developed human being will eventually realise that they can just fill in the blanks themselves to complete the sentences which define them as a person.

But someone without the necessary emotional grounding to come to that conclusion might just be sold on someone giving away free adverbs and pronouns. Maybe they're shocked by a religious revelation because the first sentence made so much sense, they feel they've found the missing pieces in their life, but things get a bit weirder when

Jim loved his brown dog.

turns into

Jim raped his poptart with a bowling ball

But by the time this wackiness shows up they're all ready dependent on the answers they had earlier, and still don't realise they're at liberty to edit their own sentences, that they can create their own soul.

[Tev]

*sigh*

Funka, look. I know what words mean. I even know their myriad of multiple meanings (alliteration go!) and I very much understand your point as well as agree with it at several levels. It's just that you're hard lining your points with poor word choices that undermine your positions.

You have a valid opinion that is coming off as abrasive and exclusive. That thing that I said wasn't critiquing your point; it was critiquing your style. It makes it very hard for a person like me who somewhat agrees with you to voice my agreements when your words cross lines that can and will offend people. I’m beginning to think this is how moderate Republicans feel when Rush or Glenn Beck talk.

[krogothwolf]

dude if you don't understand the definition of "pussy" as used in modern american english as apart from genitalia then I don't hold out much hope of getting any point across to you.

You do realize the main reason people are called a "pussy" is to call into question their masculinity by comparing them to the vagina right?

[Funka Genocide]

I don't think you're helping your case (whatever it might be) by arguing pointless semantics and word choice.

I chose the words for impact, to illustrate my distaste and disgust for the actions of these people. I feel it did its job. Now if you want to take issue with the inherently sexist connotations that's one thing, however words are mostly intent in the interpretation. I can say fuck in any number of ways, sometimes when I'm ecstatic and sometimes when I'm angry.

If you're assuming that I'm trying to denigrate women by my usage of common slang, your assumption is incorrect.

Also I'm not on TV or radio, and I'm pretty sure any offense taken from my thoughts here isn't derived from the fact that I'm holding on to outdated, dogmatic principles for the sake of furthering my own interests. (like Limbaugh) Like you said, it might be because you don't approve of my word choice but really, who cares? You get the message, I don't particularly care to sugarcoat things, then you just end up sounding watered down and unfocused.

Perhaps my usage of profanity and slang wouldn't cut it in a public address, but hey the next time I give a speech at a political rally I'll be sure to tone it down.

And don't get all indignant with the *sighs* and crap because I called you on some nit-picky nonsense. Your intent in pointing out my egregious error in word choice was an attempt to take impetus from my point, in effect you were attempting to assert a form of passive aggressive dominance by being condescending, you really shouldn't be surprised if such a tactic is met with opposition.

[Tev]

If you're assuming that I'm trying to denigrate women by my usage of common slang, your assumption is incorrect.There's a cycle here that is fun to demonstrate, so I shall.

You're assuming that I'm assuming anything involving what you are trying to get across as opposed to how others view what you post and color their opinions of your argument and subsequent arguments made in line with yours. Your turn.

That all aside, back to the matter at hand:

I'd really like to learn more about how people fall into these cults. Many of the people posting here I would assume consider themselves fairly normal with varying states of well adjustedness and we all seem confused about why people would buy into this crap. Who the hell buys into this crap?

[Viridis]

Their current leader (the crazy dude) dropped out of high school to join. There are certain groups that are just looking for meaning in life and there are groups that prey on that.

[krogothwolf]

Your distaste and disgust is directed at the wrong people.

You're directing it at people who are generally either suckered or conned into something or were at a low point in their life and felt like they needed this because they were promised it would help them feel better about themselves. Then they were lied to and manipulated into going further and further into it. The people who run Scientology and recruit other people are trained into finding and manipulating these people into joining their organization and getting farther into it. Calling them them pussies, cowards or anything is absolutely wrong. They may have underlying issues that lead them down their path and then have no idea on how to get out. From what I've read about how Scientology treats those who leave it I can understand. You're friends and family abandon you, they turn their back on you if you leave the organization. These people aren't pussies or cowards. They are merely people who are either weak willed or weak minded or at a very low rung in their life with nothing to hold them up or hope on.

If anything should fill you with distaste and disgust its the people who take advantage of those kinds of people. That is wrong. Not everyone can recognize a con, not everyone can resist a charming and well articulate individual into talking them into joining something. Not everyone can bounce back from bad things by just lifting their own spirits and marching on.

Your line of thinking is more of a person who has a superior attitude that they are better then those that this happens to.

[synkr0nized]

I don't think they are, given that he leads the organization. I think the main response has been to call the people who are coming forward liars.

So he is. I should grasp the critical facts before making comments, I suppose, but it is Scientology...



Tev: I don't know, but some people are susceptible to peer pressure quite a bit. I know it's hardly the same scale, but how many times have people done something just 'cause their friends do? Or were dumb enough to drink something someone gave them just 'cause? I'd imagine there are enough people who may be predisposed to following or who don't know where else to turn that they just assume this is the correct path or this is what they have to do.

That said, I do feel they're very, very stupid. Turning to Scientology, as silly as I think it is, for your personal betterment and nourishment, sure, OK. Dealing with things like described and letting people degrade you, treat you without respect, etc.? Stupid. I don't care what it is. I'm not versed in psychology research, but I'd like to know if there is a scale or something like that to compare doing something like above -- joining in with a group for one activity, listening to all your friends even if it's not the best idea, etc. -- and then full-blown cult membership and accepting abuse.

[Funka Genocide]

Well Krogo, you're almost entirely right in that post. But Disgust is warranted for both parties, yes the people that prey on the weak willed are just as bad if not worse than the fools that fall for it, but that doesn't mean disdain isn't warranted in both cases.

and yes of course I consider myself superior to either. I'm not selling my individuality for security blanket and I'm not making a living off of raping faith, so yeah I think that puts me squarely in the superior bracket.

as well as I'd assume the majority of poster here, mind you. I'm not saying that I'm intrinsically better than anyone of course, just that in this particular spectrum of behavior I believe myself to be pursuing a more personally advantageous path than these people, who are pretty much fucking (oh sorry! I mean fudging) themselves over.

[Sithdarth]

I find it very hard to blame people you get addicted or indoctrinated for getting addicted or indoctrinated. Mostly because the brain is a several pound mass of nearly complete mystery. Every time we think we know something it seems to be just a little bit off. Like the structural differences between male and female brains that are purely genetic. Given that I find it a very hard sell to exclude the possibility of people with genetically constructed brain architectures that prevent them from avoiding these situations. Of course that does not preclude the existence of people that are completely at fault only acknowledges the fact that there could exist people that are simply wired in a way that makes these thing unavoidable. Its like calling a CPU stupid because it can't process information in parallel like we can. Some people have the wiring and some people might not.

[stefan]

just as an aside I should point out that if you think that people victimized by scientology deserve it for not solving the problem, I suggest you go look up the definition of "Learned Helplessness".

[Funka Genocide]

That's an interesting take Sithdarth, but regardless of the biological reasoning behind decisions, I think it's still safe to say that someone who foregoes basic human dignity in exchange for childish affirmations is a wretched, pitiful thing.

Eh but this is a brave new world where we've got a pill for everything, so I don't find it odd that I'd be in the minority opinion here. People seek increasingly more labyrinthine explanations for the reasons they're so fucked up and get farther away from the fact that its nobodies responsibility but their own to fix it.

We consider the abusive alcoholic the victim, his battered wife the victim, our beleaguered social programs the victim.

Eventually there's got to be someone, or something somewhere that isn't the victim, and fixes things right?

(or is that what Scientology is for?)

and as for everyone citing the "well why don't you try being miserable and see what cooky schemes you dream up to make yourself un-miserable!" defense I say that being miserable is a natural reaction to being in a bad situation. Being miserable is a part of being human, and I'd much rather maintain my dignity and work towards my own solution to misery than buy someone's snake oil cure-all at the cost of my self respect.

[bluestarultor]

I think people are forgetting that Scientology does everything in stages. Early stuff is there to be friendly and get you hooked, then you pay a small sum to learn more once they have you. Then you learn more, and it's still pretty nice, and maybe there's a minor conflict with what you used to believe as a South African Potato Worshiper, but, hey, it's not like people didn't argue about whether the One True Potato was a red-skin or brown-skin, right? Things are pretty cool and this Scientology stuff is pretty interesting, so you pay a slightly larger sum to learn even more. And, hey, this is getting pretty interesting. Yeah, you're two levels above the newcomers, so you've got some juicy details they aren't supposed to know, and it makes you feel pretty special. You pay some more to get higher, but it's not that much more money than last time, right? Wow, so this stuff is pretty deep. Yeah, there's a lot of conflicts now, but those new incoming people really couldn't handle it. You're totally glad they waited on this. Potatoes? What are those? You need to know more. It's a lot to advance, but it's been totally worth it so far. You can really tell all of that cleansing has had an effect on you, and you know these guys, so why not let them in on your dirty little secrets? They're all really supportive and share their own.

...

Wow. All these people are laughing at you for sneezing between the hours of seven and eight last night. You feel horrible. How could you have done such a thing? But the cat's out of the bag. Hey, you've got a high ranking post coming up, though, right? You'll be dealing with the Great and Powerful Leader directly soon! What could be better than that? You're pretty hot shit now, right? Besides, you're done and can sit back down. Oh, man, that lady totally stepped on a crack on a Thursday! What a moron!




Edit: The point being, if a process is slow enough, people don't notice the difference. You can talk all you want about people not taking shit, but if it's just a little worse at a time, people don't notice the change. It's like watching a flower grow. Unless you have it condensed, the day-to-day change isn't noticeable. That's the way any abuse works, or any effective abuse. A woman doesn't marry a guy she knows is going to beat her to death one day. She marries a sweet, charming guy, who then slowly puts her down, isolates her, and finally starts hitting her. Joining a cult is the same way.

[Funka Genocide]

yeah but I mean, if I wanted to pay someone to learn something of cosmic significance I'd save up for Paul McCartney. (I mean he knew John Lennon)

[Mesden]

and as for everyone citing the "well why don't you try being miserable and see what cooky schemes you dream up to make yourself un-miserable!" defense I say that being miserable is a natural reaction to being in a bad situation. Being miserable is a part of being human, and I'd much rather maintain my dignity and work towards my own solution to misery than buy someone's snake oil cure-all at the cost of my self respect.

I doubt there's a human alive who's never done something undignified for personal reasons.

[Funka Genocide]

I doubt there's a human alive who's never done something undignified for personal reasons.

ok you've got me there. But there's a difference between people being human and slipping up here and there and people making a lifestyle out of it.

[Mesden]

No there isn't. The only difference is what arbitrary line you draw, which is no more logical, reasonable, or right then what the people you've been spitting on in this entire thread do. You're not perfect, stop pretending that you are some divine being who pities us pathetic mortals who make mistakes and get hurt because of it.

[Funka Genocide]

No there isn't. The only difference is what arbitrary line you draw, which is no more logical, reasonable, or right then what the people you've been spitting on in this entire thread do. You're not perfect, stop pretending that you are some divine being who pities us pathetic mortals who make mistakes and get hurt because of it.


wow, you sound angrier than me.

good job!

But uh, yeah. That's not really going to change the intent or efficacy of anything I've said. If you took it personally that says more about you than me, to be honest.

[Mesden]

Haha no, you should've seen my actual rant that I didn't post here. Now THOSE are angry. It's just that this thread shouldn't be some multi-page agenda of yours to pity and insult those who you pretend are weaker than yourself. Every human is susceptible to what these people have gone through.

[Funka Genocide]

Haha no, you should've seen my actual rant that I didn't post here. Now THOSE are angry.


You can pm it to me if you want, I doubt I'll be stunned. I still disagree with your conclusion on this, as well as the conclusions drawn by the majority of posters in this thread. You're trying to tell me we're all just hapless victims waiting to get screwed over and there's no distinction betweeen, say holding your tongue when you're unjustly insulted by your superior in the military and forsaking your husband for a cult.

I disagree, and my reasons should be quite clear.

The line is not so thin or indistinct as you claim. There is a threshold where human fallibility gives way to willful ignorance, and I feel you're missing that point in your anger at my tone.

Perhaps I rely too much on anecdotal evidence however, as every alcoholic I've ever met has been a worthless scumbag, every abusive husband or father I've ever met wasn't worth his molecules and every abuse enabling wife I ever knew was a pitiful wreck. And when I put myself in a postion to be programmed by americas finest I was miserable a lot, but I never bought in to the bullshit and at the end I found myself a better person for that.

[MasterOfMagic]

I find the tone of this article a bit grating, as all these people are being treated solely as victims of a single person, instead of self inflicted victims of stupidity.

The kind of mentality that makes a person stand there and get slapped around by some asshole is the kind of mentality that wants to be a victim. I really don't care much about their stories of abuse.
This is not something they just decided they were okay with one day. Some are born into it, and never got a chance to develop any other mentality. Some were experiencing hell on Earth, and just wanted a way out, and Scientology was there for them at the beginning.

I simply disagree with the prevailing sentiment that these people are doing something brave, heroic or useful.
What!? Alot of these people are risking everything they have to warn other people about this cult. Throwing away all of their friends, risking being cut off from their own families to speak out, and you see absolutely nothing courageous about that because they made a mistake earlier in their life? Seriously?
Remember I was in the military, I know all about mental conditioning and social engineering. I also know that you've still got to drink the cool-aid, so to speak.
This is in no way like the kind of mental conditioning the Military puts its members through. Who ever brought that up was making a terrible analogy. Tell me, did the military seek you out because they knew you were at a weak point in your life? Did it offer you comfort in a time of need at the beginning, only to slowly, oh so slowly tear away anything in your life that would let you escape so it could milk you for all you had?

[Funka Genocide]

You're wrong in a lot of your assumptions there MoM.

These people are risking losing that which they bargained away their humanity for. To get it back I wager that's a fair trade, and I have a hard time pitying them because THEY PUT THEMSELVES IN THAT POSITION.

And do you know anything about military recruitment? I was 17, broke and had very little prospects. They offered me "money for college" and a trade. What I got in return was 6 years of being told I don't suck dick well enough for advancement.

It's the same damn thing, but the difference is you can't get out of the military once you're in without incurring severe criminal charges. With scientology, you can just walk away despite what you might think about losing friends and all that.

Comrades in misery aren't real friends.

[BitVyper]

dignity

You're discussing Scientology on an internet message board dedicated to a sprite comic. You are represented in this discussion by a little picture of a Mario baddy.

Yeah... "dignity."

[Funka Genocide]

sprite


I a terrible 7-Up knock off.

oh, and childish pot-shots are totally radical broham.

[MasterOfMagic]

These people are risking losing that which they bargained away their humanity for. To get it back I wager that's a fair trade, and I have a hard time pitying them because THEY PUT THEMSELVES IN THAT POSITION.
Yes. And you or I could have just as easily done the same thing if we had been in their position. Them having their humanity taken away while they were weak does not mean they deserve all of the shit thrown their way.

And do you know anything about military recruitment? I was 17, broke and had very little prospects. They offered me "money for college" and a trade. What I got in return was 6 years of being told I don't suck dick well enough for advancement.

It's the same damn thing, but the difference is you can't get out of the military once you're in without incurring severe criminal charges. With scientology, you can just walk away despite what you might think about losing friends and all that.
Except you got out and got a job that paid you $5,000 in a month. The military has its bad points, and I'm sure your much more well acquainted with them than I, but it doesn't throw people down a shithole and keep kicking.

[Mesden]

You're wrong in a lot of your assumptions there MoM.

These people are risking losing that which they bargained away their humanity for. To get it back I wager that's a fair trade, and I have a hard time pitying them because THEY PUT THEMSELVES IN THAT POSITION.

And do you know anything about military recruitment? I was 17, broke and had very little prospects. They offered me "money for college" and a trade. What I got in return was 6 years of being told I don't suck dick well enough for advancement.

It's the same damn thing, but the difference is you can't get out of the military once you're in without incurring severe criminal charges. With scientology, you can just walk away despite what you might think about losing friends and all that.

Comrades in misery aren't real friends.

Man, you even just admitted it's the same damn thing, but you still insist that you are better than people who haven't gotten out of their situation, like there's no way they ever will. It's baseless, and there's absolutely no reason for you to insult them and brag about how you're better, especially the ones who specifically came out of Scientology at the very real threat of being harmed -- yet you call them pity seeking victims. It's ridiculous.

[BitVyper]

I a terrible 7-Up knock off.

Is not.

oh, and childish pot-shots are totally radical broham.

Obviously. Why else would I take them?

[Funka Genocide]

I'm not saying they deserve this, I'm saying I'm not surprised they suffered the fate they brough ton themselves. No one DESERVES to be brutalized or abused, but people set themselves up for it and then wonder why.

I do not abhor their actions because they were abused, but because they allowed themselves to be abused.

Try reading more than what you want out of what I post.

@Mesden: well to be fair, money for college offered by a government institution is a bit more substantial of a carrot on a stick than eternal salvation at the hands of space jesus. But yes, I slipped up much the same way these scientologists did, however I maintained my individuality and free will at the cost of my own comfort and success within the institution, whereas they bought it all hook line and sinker and then wondered why their dreams were smashed.

[Mesden]

Oh, okay, you just consider them cowards, pussies, and pity their pathetic existences? I'm not sure what definition of abhor you use. It's hypocritical to the nth degree.


@Mesden: well to be fair, money for college offered by a government institution is a bit more substantial of a carrot on a stick than eternal salvation at the hands of space jesus.

I think it's more importantly a supportive group of peers who've been through and understand your hardships. You can say money for college is still better but that's still subjective.

[Funka Genocide]

well yeah, but I mean I feel that way about all religions so uh...

what are we talking about again?

oh right, the military isn't a religion, it's just an institution akin to indentured servituted. There's very little delusion involved, you get bullets and put them into foreigners.

and honestly who would have issue witha support network of peers working together for common goals? Like the boyscouts or something?

That's cool, I mean so are "friends" and "family" and "loved ones" you're stretching everything I've said and trying to demonize it, when you should just take it as face value. Having to rely on something real isn't weakness, it's human.

Tricking yourself into believing your privvy to the secrets of existence because some old dude said so is weakness of the highest degree.

[Geminex]

There is a threshold where human fallibility gives way to willful ignorance,

So there is. Can you define this threshhold? Can you prove that this threshhold is here and nowhere else? Can you prove that, being in the mental state of, say, Jackie Wolff, you wouldn't have acted in the same manner?

All of this is subjective. How they felt. Why they reacted. It's all subjective.

Not to mention, that by adhering to the belief that you're superior, you're sacrificing individuality for the feeling of superiority. Not exactly the same, but not so very different.

[MasterOfMagic]

I'm not saying they deserve this, I'm saying I'm not surprised they suffered the fate they brough ton themselves. No one DESERVES to be brutalized or abused, but people set themselves up for it and then wonder why.

I do not abhor their actions because they were abused, but because they allowed themselves to be abused.
This completely throws away any reasoning for why they might have allowed it. You're disregarding a terribly important part of this whole thing just to make yourself look superior. Its not always so easy as "tell them to fuck off!". Pay more attention to what was happening.

Tricking yourself into believing your privvy to the secrets of existence because some old dude said so is weakness of the highest degree.
No one here is saying they are not, or were not weak (though the one's who have spoken out sure made a hell of a turn-around). At least, I haven't seen it. What I'm saying is that your disdain of their feelings and troubles because of this is completely unjustified.

[Sir Pinkleton]

I think the two prevailing arguments of thought are superiority of those who're suffering in the cult and how long it takes to get indoctrinated meaning something for justifying their nature.

"I'm not such a weak-minded individual to get suckered into a cult and let that happen to me," at least sounds to me like a I'm-superior comment, whether it is or not, and I think that's where some of the arguing is coming from. Some people condemn feelings of superiority in any sense (because it's not modern, it's not fair, or whatever) and others don't think much about it ("Well, I know I wouldn't get into trouble like that. That's just stupid.") Whether or not these two sides of the argument feel that's what they're saying, it looks like that's how both sides are being presented. If any of this makes sense. >>

And then there's this argument that "it doesn't matter how long you've been in the church, you shouldn't allow it to get that far," and "It's a gradual process that everyone can be subjective to."

Defining positions on these issues might make discussion less flamey (no offense to anyone) and more... I guess progressive is the word.

[Mesden]

Tricking yourself into believing your privvy to the secrets of existence because some old dude said so is weakness of the highest degree.

Sorry Funka, your degree of weakness is so much weaker than mine that I pity the likes of you and consider you nothing but a cowardly pussy for finding yourself in the situation to join a large supportive structure to help get you life back on track, regardless of what actual effects it may endear!


Obviously sarcasm, but there's no definitive degree to which something is weakness. You oversimplify the situation of thousands of people and automatically assert that your self cited situation is a much less 'pathetic' (I hate the use of this word, personally) one for no reason other than you say and think so. Anecdotal, subjective, reasonless, and hypocritically unfair to those that you generalize and spite.

[bluestarultor]

Yeah, Funka? Military is a mite different. You keep talking like cults are easy to leave. It's more like "welcome to Hotel California." Once you're in, with some, there is never a way out until you die, because they will follow and hound you, and some might even take care of it personally. Scientology isn't quite that bad, but when you leave, you've likely had no outside support for years, your bank is likely broken, and you have to live in constant silence for fear of them suing you to remove the entirety of your remaining wealth for years, having your house broken into and vandalized, and even getting shot at in front of your own home.

Think of that. It would be like if you left the military and then had to run and hide for fear they'd sue you or even idly send in troops just to mess up your shit or even quietly execute you. Oh, and they might even be your friends and family. Unless they left with you. Then all you have to worry about is leaving them alone where they could get hurt or killed without you to protect them. But at least you can all share in being watched constantly and living penniless.

[Mesden]

Aaaaaaaaaaanyhow, I've said my piece. I think you're way too harsh on those who find themselves in a cult (not just specific to scientology, either), and don't honestly have the right to criticize it (nor do most people). There's merit in the few who came out to speak against the church to expose the wrongdoings, especially at the risk of their selves.

[Funka Genocide]

Well I'm looking from a purely secular, logical (in the context of what is readily observable to someone with an American High School education) perspective.

You're the one that made this something personal, as though I'm trying to assert my superiority over lesser beings, as though that's an important facet of this conversation. I don't need to do that, as relative station in life is subjective in these circumstances, so it really has very little effect on the discussion if I believe myself superior in some way to people that allow themselves to be taken in by a cult.

The only real measurement that could be considered remotely analytical would be relative levels of "success" as defined in any number of ways with reference to modern society. Mental health, monetary wealth, take your pick. The outcome will be inconclusive, there's no way to make a discussion like this less subjective so really what we have here is a case of "well you can't prove anything so shut up!"

But really, do I have to prove that scientology is a scam? That these so called victims were pretty high up in the chain, meaning that through their direct efforts OTHERS were brought into the abusive fold, meaning that by their efforts they subjugated others to the same delusion to support their own, obviously twisted worldview?

Do I have to point out that you're arguing on behalf of a pyramid scam disguised as a cult disguised as a religion?

None of which are good things, mind you.

Or do I have to defend my own life piece by piece because you've engineered some sort of contradiction given the limited information I've posted?

Or do I just reiterate what I've said and let you go on raging about how much of an asshole I am?

Yeah, all humans have moments of weakness. We all fall short of our ideals and have moral lapses. But most of us base our morals on something concrete, or as concrete as a social construct can be. We look at the world and other people and we decided, based on our cultures, in what manner best to act.

Some people wish to embrace a divergent moral outlook in hopes of finding some form of fulfillment unbeknownst to others, if anything THEY'RE the ones with a superiority complex, one which is entirely illogical and unfounded. They think they've figured out the penultimate question to human existence, with what? Science fiction or ancient myhtology, take your pick. What you have is people who refuse to see reality, who are willfully ignorant and OH! well some of them had a change of heart so lets demonize the evil figurehead who hurt them and let them know it's not their fault.

My whole point is not to prove I'm some kind of superior life form (more in line with scientology again) but to point out a serious failing in modern society, an inability for people to clean up their own shit. The fact that I'm not tearing up over these cowards sob stories doesn't impact the fact that they deluded themselves and bolstered the delusions of others because of their own weakness, a weakness we all share as humans and yet some of us manage just fine without a fairy tale ending or beginning.

[MasterOfMagic]

But really, do I have to prove that scientology is a scam? That these so called victims were pretty high up in the chain, meaning that through their direct efforts OTHERS were brought into the abusive fold, meaning that by their efforts they subjugated others to the same delusion to support their own, obviously twisted worldview?

Do I have to point out that you're arguing on behalf of a pyramid scam disguised as a cult disguised as a religion?
How? Who are you talking to when you say this?


Some people wish to embrace a divergent moral outlook in hopes of finding some form of fulfillment unbeknownst to others, if anything THEY'RE the ones with a superiority complex, one which is entirely illogical and unfounded. They think they've figured out the penultimate question to human existence, with what? Science fiction or ancient myhtology, take your pick.
Fighting fire with fire is a horrible methodology. Fight it with reason, not spite.

What you have is people who refuse to see reality, who are willfully ignorant and OH! well some of them had a change of heart so lets demonize the evil figurehead who hurt them and let them know it's not their fault.
They made a mistake, but this, again, does not mean we should scoff at their ability to break away, or ignore the thing that did this to them when given the opportunity. Or try to prevent it from doing it to others in a bad position in the future.

[Funka Genocide]

It occurs to me that I'm the only providing any real substance to this thread, and the majority of others input is people attempting to take apart my statements. Kind of makes me feel like I'm the only one who has any real conviction in my ideals, which kind of makes this a pointless conversation, if you catch my drift.

[MasterOfMagic]

It occurs to me that I'm the only providing any real substance to this thread, and the majority of others input is people attempting to take apart my statements. Kind of makes me feel like I'm the only one who has any real conviction in my ideals, which kind of makes this a pointless conversation, if you catch my drift.
We are not reading the same thread. I get that your trying to rail against a flaw in humanity, to say that we should not be sheep and think. That's fine. But the way you are doing it is terrible. The ends do not justify the means. Your reasons for reaching a conclusion are just as important as the conclusion itself.

[Funka Genocide]

count how many posts are quoting something I said...

yeah

[MasterOfMagic]

Replying to the points the opposite side makes is a necessary in a discussion of any kind. Throwing ideas at each other with no reference would be as pointless to me as you seem to think this thread is now.

[Krylo]

count how many posts are quoting something I said...

yeah

Having a lot of people arguing against you usually means exactly the opposite of what you seem to think it means.

[Funka Genocide]

well I assume it means they disagree with me Jared. That's a logical assumption right?

Now that could mean that I'm wrong, but on a topic like this its very hard to delineate apparently. I felt my statements were pretty self evident, but I'm under the assumption that most believe that people are powerless to resist the sirens call of Scientology, and should be lauded for their efforts at escaping.

OK. I understand your thoughts on the matter and respectfully disagree. I've all ready stated why. So I guess my piece has been said and I have no further need to continue posting in this thread.

rock on dudes

[MasterOfMagic]

No. Not all people are powerless to them. But most people have the potential to be if put in the wrong position. This is a very important distinction.

And yes, they should be lauded for breaking out. It took a lot of courage.

[Krylo]

well I assume it means they disagree with me Jared. That's a logical assumption right?

Oh hey, I guess you do know what it means.

But then it's just kind of confusing that you would accuse them all of not contributing or not having any kind of conviction in their ideals because they're disagreeing with you.

Which is a far cry from the much more logical assumption that you just made.

I honestly don't care about right or wrong here, but levels of arrogant jackass are pretty heavy on one side, and show no signs of slowing down.

So, hey, there's that.

[Funka Genocide]

well my central point got very muddled somewhere in the counter argument phase. I started it off very combatively as well, but I didn't expect quite the backlash, which sort of caught me off guard.

And yeah, from my perspective it felt very one sided as everyone seemed to be harping on the same cookie cutter response to my assertions. However that could have easily been misoncstrued on my part due to frustation, still not sure though to be honest.

[bluestarultor]

well my central point got very muddled somewhere in the counter argument phase. I started it off very combatively as well, but I didn't expect quite the backlash, which sort of caught me off guard.

And yeah, from my perspective it felt very one sided as everyone seemed to be harping on the same cookie cutter response to my assertions. However that could have easily been misoncstrued on my part due to frustation, still not sure though to be honest.

Well, forgive me for saying this, but when you totally undermine the danger these people are facing for leaving and speaking out, i.e. property damage and even physical harm up to and including murder attempts, you can proooobably expect people to get in your face over it.


Edit: That is to say that one of the RULES in Scientology is to make an effort to utterly destroy anyone who opposes it, so, yeah, you know what indoctrination is like in the military, the abuse you take, the difficulty in leaving, but you never seemed to grasp the danger of talking about it in these people's cases. After all, a lot of these people have family, even children, who might not be leaving with them, and, heck, what do you tell your kid when they get told to tell you they're not coming with you and you'll never see them again because of it. It's a horrible system that turns even families against their own members, and family is supposed to be the one place you can always come back to. It's an evil, abusive system that doesn't care who you are or what the laws are in its effort to destroy anything in its path, and you've said so. You just didn't seem to get that "anything" included people.

[Geminex]

I guess people disliked the fact that you saw the fault of scientology ruining people's lives in these people. This in turn made you seem rather arrogant, which made a lot of people a lot more willing to refute your points. Eventually the argument just burned down to you saying "Yes it does" and everyone else yelling "No it doesn't".

[Funka Genocide]

well my central response still stands, its not like I changed my mind. I was just being a bit "angry angry grr grr" from the get go which probably skewed the outcome because people take things personally (myself included).

ah well, better luck next time and all that

[Sir Pinkleton]

well my central response still stands, its not like I changed my mind. I was just being a bit "angry angry grr grr" from the get go which probably skewed the outcome because people take things personally.

ah well, better luck next time and all that

Why wait for a next time when we still have a one now? :D

How long've these people been "coming out?" I've heard of this thing awhile ago, so it's not like it's new, right? Was it just that all of the other times I've missed it due to Scientology harping on them?

Edit: I guess to clarify, why is this certain account of people coming out more notable? just because it was a lot at the same time, and they have specific examples of treachery? I think we've always known Scientology was a bad deal, no?

[Funka Genocide]

I DO think that it's a good thing people are starting to break their delusions and come forward. I just think the efforts are directed in the wrong direction. Its like these people want to see a change in leadership instead of the end of Scientology, which I see as preferable.

[Sir Pinkleton]

I DO think that it's a good thing people are starting to break their delusions and come forward. I just think the efforts are directed in the wrong direction. Its like these people want to see a change in leadership instead of the end of Scientology, which I see as preferable.

I guess they don't clarify what they want to do about Scientology then, now that they're out of it? It sounded to me like they wanted to end it, but I guess that's just through my logic, which hasn't been brainwashed to think in any way this is okay, unlike they, who now have some psychological problems from it all.

I admit, I didn't read all of the article via the link, so maybe they're more clear then. or maybe I've forgotten in the past few pages.

[bluestarultor]

I guess they don't clarify what they want to do about Scientology then, now that they're out of it? It sounded to me like they wanted to end it, but I guess that's just through my logic, which hasn't been brainwashed to think in any way this is okay, unlike they, who now have some psychological problems from it all.

I admit, I didn't read all of the article via the link, so maybe they're more clear then. or maybe I've forgotten in the past few pages.

No, the articles are pretty strongly against the establishment and the people speaking out make an effort to paint it as a hellish organization led by a psychotic leader. They're saying it's all kinds of fucked up. The media just picked one area to focus on a bit more to sell the story.

[synkr0nized]

EDIT: Jesus Christ, stop posting when I am trying to write out a reasonable response to a thread. You guys appear to already be moving in a better direction.
---

All right, we should probably steer this thread in a less destructive direction.

Funka, I don't feel anyone was arguing for Scientology or the types of things described in the article but rather against your strongly-arrogant assumptions about the character and worth of the individuals involved and your direction of feelings, as the discussion progressed, toward anyone in a situation that has spiraled out of their control and/or where they made a decision you've arbitrarily judged as poor. It's not really the what of your posts so much as it's the how and why of them. I'm willing to bet at least some people on this forum have similar opinions as you on this issue.

Also, continuing down the path to a post like this:

It occurs to me that I'm the only providing any real substance to this thread, and the majority of others input is people attempting to take apart my statements. Kind of makes me feel like I'm the only one who has any real conviction in my ideals, which kind of makes this a pointless conversation, if you catch my drift.

was a pretty poor idea and not accurate (I'd wager plenty of your co-discussants felt pretty strongly, "convicted in their ideals"), though through Krylo I think we've cleared that up.


Similarly, let's not all resort completely to off-handed ad hominem just because we don't agree with someone.


By all means, continue the discussion and all that, but let's tone down the negativity.

[MasterOfMagic]

I wouldn't expect confessions from people leaving the Church to focus on bringing about its end. For people who were caught up in it, it would be all to easy to focus on the good things that got them into it in the first place, and associate all of the bad things with the leadership.

Perhaps the media coverage should focus more on the Church itself, I don't know. I certainly came away with a distaste for the entire organization, not just its head. I obviously agree the whole thing should be eradicated.

[Funka Genocide]

roger wilco Synk.

haha.

No you guys are right that I was being an arrogant prick, which sucks for me because it really undermined my whole point. but ah well.

And yeah, its been a while since I read the articles but the focus seemed mainly on the leader, which is good fluff for a news articles but I think does less as a platform for combating an abusive systems like this than would a commentary on the organization as a whole.

Also yeah I agree that the general inclination of institutionalized people would probably be to assocaite all the bad things with some great big "they" who constitute the controlling portion of whatever organization they left, at least in my experience this is the case. When I left the military I had a lot of fond memories of partying with my friends and seeing the world, while all the un-fun stuff was chalked up to "those big evil bastards."

But when you finally take a step outside you've got to view the organization as a whole and really try to be honest, and starting with yourself is typically the best way to go. I'd assume this would help you shed the victim mentality by taking responsibility for your own decisions, as well as the actions of your friends.

[synkr0nized]

I wouldn't expect confessions from people leaving the Church to focus on bringing about its end. For people who were caught up in it, it would be all to easy to focus on the good things that got them into it in the first place, and associate all of the bad things with the leadership.

Perhaps the media coverage should focus more on the Church itself, I don't know. I certainly came away with a distaste for the entire organization, not just its head. I obviously agree the whole thing should be eradicated.

There's difficulty here, both from the point you mention in the first paragraph and from the fact that it's difficult to hamper the momentum of any large body of organized individuals at large scales.

Bad things have happened to people in other churches and religious groups (I am sure we could harp on some happenings within the Christian faiths, for example, or the current Republican party in the US). While it may be true that the heads of these organizations are not similarly as deeply involved or to blame as in Scientology, the ability to separate the whole from the bad portions is still relevant and applicable. We may want to tear down the whole creature that is Scientology, sure, but plenty of others will rally to support it regardless of these kinds of incidents.

Larger-scale change is necessary, I think, for anything to happen. However, it may be that coverage and investigation of local entities, informing people on a more personal level, may help the overall exposure of how Scientology indoctrinates and exploits its membership.

Another problem, perhaps, is that it's really easy to ignore when you are not involved. It's not like I concern myself with eradicating Scientology. No one I know subscribes to it, it has no presence, or a very minimal one if it does, where I live, and it as of yet does not encroach upon my life and rights. Truly I hope it never does, but unlike political arguments that affect my nation, state, and town or academic issues that impact my work or so forth it has no bearing on me and is ignorable and mocked as needed. Maybe if data supports that Scientology is an endemic social disease that not only harms individuals but harms our culture it could be better addressed.

[Funka Genocide]

Well (and this is going to be potentially inflammatory) I think one of the reasons Scientology enjoys such freedom of operation is the fact that the longer it exists, the more credence it builds as an actula religious institution, and you run the risk of insulting or upsetting the larger religious populace by introducing sanctions against it, not because they're concerned about Scientology but because of what it might entail for other religions.

[MasterOfMagic]

I think that's a perfectly valid concern, and it doesn't really speak badly of anyone other than Scientology.

There's difficulty here, both from the point you mention in the first paragraph and from the fact that it's difficult to hamper the momentum of any large body of organized individuals at large scales.
Yeah, that's why I don't actually believe we'll ever be rid of it completely. Or at least not in my lifetime.

[Funka Genocide]

Well if it is a valid concern I don't think it speaks badly of any religion, but I don't think it speaks goodly either. It's kind of like a parasitic relationship, the host doesn't like the parasite and yet, the removal of the parasite might injure it more and so it simply deals with it.

[MasterOfMagic]

I think I'll avoid comment on that :P

(Not because I'm offended, I just don't think I could avoid offending others unintentionally)

[Funka Genocide]

you see this is why people like you MoM. haha.

NPF makes me feel like a crotchety old man.

[Sir Pinkleton]

you see this is why people like you MoM. haha.

NPF makes me feel like a crotchety old man.

"Old man Funka" has a thing with it, but "Old man Genocide" sounds like Hitler. :sweatdrop

[Geminex]

Did somebody say Hit-

...

No, no, never mind.

And it wouldn't be "old man Funka". More like "Grumpy ol' Funka".

[Sir Pinkleton]

Godwin's Law! That's what I was thinking of, I always for get what it's called. I was using it ironically. :p

Butbackontopic this (http://religions.pewforum.org/reports) site doesn't list Scientology is a religion, and apparently it's kinda difinitive. I'm not sure if I've seen anywhere as listing it as an actual option for religion, so there's that to take into consideration. Also, this (http://www.lermanet.com/howmany.htm) site claims that the numbers of Scientologists has gone down sharply in the past few years (still trawling its sources to see where/how it got those numbers, but hey, at least it's better than any guess from me).

[Premonitions]

Back in my day........
Easy Clarification.
You can say all you want about them being weak for being suckered in, and whatnot, but somewhere down the line they decided to get out. Further down the line they decided to fight back.

To make it even easier to understand.
Let's say you're a member of C.O.B.R.A. and for years you're all throwing the salute and making robot snake traps or whatever the fuck they do, I don't watch G.I. Joe.
Then one day you go "Holy shit they're EVIL" and you leave. They tell you, "bitch you can leave and we'll be vandalzing your shit from time to time, and none of your friends will like you, and that'll be about it. But you DAMN WELL better not say shit in public about us because we WILL kill you." so you're quiet and miserable for a good few years, then one day you go "Fuck it, I'mma go find Duke and kick some C.O.B.R.A. ass!" and start bustin up their shit. That's pretty damn courageous.

[Funka Genocide]

My uncle knows Maria Carey, therefore your arguments are invalid.

also yeah, I mean if I defected from COBRA to the Joe team I guess that'd be pretty badass. But I'd still be a douche for rolling with cobra commander, I mean seriously...

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y273/Akio666/467px-CobraCommander-150.jpg

I love it when that picture is topical.

[Jenwrath]

Man, I'm so so soooooo glad me and a vast majority of people are able to take these people's accounts of what's been going on, so that hopefully none of us will ever be sucked into the cult bull that things like Scientology promotes.


I can totally ..."see" how if once you got into a organization like that, that your ability to stand up to that kind of treatment would be severely hurt. Go go psychology ;p

[Aerozord]

honestly if it was just this it wouldn't phase me, every major religion has its horror stories. Its mostly the fact that on top of that you have to pay for membership, and they actively hide information about their religion. Something I am philisophically and morally against.