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Smarty McBarrelpants
10-31-2009, 05:19 PM
Linkie: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/oct/30/honduras-zelaya-deal-coup

Coup leaders in Honduras have accepted a US-brokered deal allowing the ousted president, Manuel Zelaya, to return to power and resolve central America's gravest political crisis since the end of the cold war.

The de facto government led by Roberto Micheletti said it would sign an accord reinstating the leftist leader in a national unity government, raising hopes that a dangerous standoff which has increased tension across the region will end without further bloodshed.

"It is a triumph for Honduran democracy," said Zelaya, who was toppled in a military coup four months ago. "This signifies my return to power in the coming days, and peace for Honduras."

If it holds - analysts cautioned things could still go wrong - the deal will be a significant foreign policy success for the Obama administration and boost its standing across Latin America. Speaking from Pakistan, US secretary of state Hillary Clinton called it "an historic agreement", adding: "This is a big step forward for the inter-American system."

Under the deal Zelaya will return to office and share power with his adversaries; both sides will recognise the result of a 29 November presidential election, which will choose a new leader. If not re-elected, Zelaya would step down in January when his successor is sworn in.

The de facto government was expected to sign the accord today. "I have authorised my negotiating team to sign a deal that marks the beginning of the end of the country's political situation," Micheletti told reporters after the breakthrough last night. He said Zelaya would return to office after a vote in congress which would be authorised by the supreme court.

"This is encouraging but caution is in order," said Michael Shifter, of the Inter-American Dialogue thinktank. "This episode has had more than its share of bizarre twists and turns. The mistrust and bitterness between both sides should not be underestimated and could still complicate [the deal's] implementation."

The crisis broke in June when soldiers arrested Zelaya in his pyjamas and bundled him into exile. The logger turned president had angered conservative foes, including congress, the supreme court and his own party by allying with Venezuela's socialist president, Hugo Chávez.

Many middle-class Hondurans cheered the ouster but the poor protested, prompting curfews, media curbs and security force crackdowns which left several dead and dozens wounded. Latin American governments called it a dark and anachronistic return to an era of authoritarian repression.

On 21 September, Zelaya slipped back into Honduras - reportedly in the boot of a car - and found refuge at the Brazilian embassy in Tegucigalpa, from where he tried to rally support. For the past 40 days troops have surrounded the compound and tried to wear down Zelaya, and several dozen supporters camped inside, by limiting food supplies and blasting rock music and recorded pig grunts.

International condemnation of the coup was near universal, turning the de facto regime into a pariah, but it dragged out negotiations with Zelaya envoys in an apparent effort to run down the clock to November's election, hoping it would wipe the slate clean.

The US, European Union and Latin American leaders threatened not to recognise the election unless Zelaya was first restored. That message was forcefully repeated in recent days by a US team led by Tom Shannon, the assistant secretary of state, and Dan Restrepo, Washington's special assistant for western hemisphere affairs.

The threat of continued isolation appeared to convince the regime to compromise, said Shifter. "The sober presentation of that stark prospect seems to have been decisive."

Zelaya's supporters inside the embassy celebrated news of the deal. It could signal an imminent end to a siege which has left them defiant but weary, not least because of overcrowding, monotony and lack of beds.

Some climbed onto walls to take photos of the soldiers outside, others posed with "Mel" (Zelaya's nickname) and asked him to autograph a white cowboy hat similar to his own. There were chants of Viva Mel, Viva USA, Viva Brazil and Viva Lula, in reference to Brazil's president.

Zelaya's aide, Carlos Reina, said it might be another week before the siege ended and the former president returned to power.

In short, the Honduran coup appears to be reaching an end as the rebels agree to a deal to return Zelaya to office in time for national elections.

I think the interesting thing about this, and why I posted it, is that this is a US brokered peace deal. Zelaya is fairly left-wing and friends with Chavez and the US has been pretty hostile to him in the past, especially with Bush and the coup would have been pleasing to their interests.
But now US is brokering a peace deal to return him to power and doing it quite well it seems. Is this a new direction for the US?
I'm very very critical of Obama and his misleading popular appeal but is this some sign of actual progress on his cabinets part or just a flash in the pan.

bluestarultor
10-31-2009, 06:20 PM
Obama isn't all smiles, you know. They guy has shown himself to be surprisingly savvy and well-qualified. Looking at who he's surrounded himself with should show that. I do hope this turns out well, not because I need any proof America is coming out of an 8-year slump, but because it will help repair some of the damage with the international community and broker a better life for all the people in the area in question, making the world ultimately a slightly better place.

BitVyper
10-31-2009, 11:03 PM
Hooray! The international community is one step closer to successfully bullying a small country into ignoring their own laws so as to accept a leader who has no respect for their constitution and breaks the law as he sees fit!

bluestarultor
11-01-2009, 12:12 AM
Hooray! The international community is one step closer to successfully bullying a small country into ignoring their own laws so as to accept a leader who has no respect for their constitution and breaks the law as he sees fit!

Background, please? All I got from the article was that he pissed off a lot of people by allying with a socialist nation. Unless that's illegal, or unless he was wearing really bad pajamas, I'm not really seeing how what he did was so wrong.

Plus, those military coups are totally always the right course of action and perfectly legal. I'm pretty sure we staged one of those against Clinton for the Lewinski scandal, didn't we?

Eltargrim
11-01-2009, 01:05 AM
If I recall, the ousted president was attempting to alter the constitution to allow himself to serve a third term; this provoked the coup.

bluestarultor
11-01-2009, 01:22 AM
If I recall, the ousted president was attempting to alter the constitution to allow himself to serve a third term; this provoked the coup.

Well, I'd imagine there's a legal process of doing so, so unless it was a unilateral decision on his part, I'd guess given that their system sounds like a copy/paste of America's, he'd need at least approval if not the work from another branch. I mean, if it had to go through their Congress, they could have just killed the bill and gone on with life. The only real danger would be if modifying their Constitution was left to the President, which is a pretty damn insecure way of doing things. I shudder to think what Bush would have done with that kind of power.

Smarty McBarrelpants
11-01-2009, 03:45 AM
The guy wanted to hold a NON-BINDING referendum on altering the constitution. It is basically a poll on what the people think. It means nothing.
In addition, what's wrong with changing the constitution if the people want to? Constitutions are repressive instruments and should be thrown out to help the people.

Furthermore, the coup has benefited the rich and the middle classes. The poor have really suffered because they had a president willing to help them before being kicked out for a bunch of right-wingers and protests about the new regime have been dominated by the poor and marginalised. There is a reason the right-wing like constitutions guys. There is a reason the countries with the strongest constitutions (like the US) also are the most right wing in their politics.
The reason there was international outrage was because the military junta was reversing all the progressive policies of Zelaya in favour of them and their buddies being able to buy bigger cigars. Holy fuck guys, every fascist group in existance is "protecting their countries traditions and laws". It pretty much their number one excuse.
Constitutions fuck the poor and fuck the people. I'm curious as to why we defending them?

In addition, he's not doing anything. This is like arresting someone for theft because they asked you "Could I please start to think about borrowing some of your stuff?"

Geminex
11-01-2009, 10:22 PM
First, I agree that the coup was an overreaction. The President had done nothing illegal, had merely made himself unpopular. I'm not sure whether he was within his rights to hold the referendum, even if it was non-binding, but I'm going to trust you and assume he was. But what's important here is that he had defied the supreme judicial institution of his state, and had, I think, used power (given the order to hold the referendum) that the judicial institution was trying to deny him. This was just an assertion of his right, I agree. However, if you look at it through the eyes of the court, or the militia junta that performed the coup, the president was exerting political power with the support of, not the state's executive force, but officials that were loyal to him personally. He was using "personal" power. And considering the frequent instability in the region, I wouldn't be surprised if quite a few people started thinking "dictator". Of course, the coup was encouraged by the president's right-wing opponents, but I wouldn't be surprised if it had taken place even if the president hadn't allied with left wing nations, simply as a preventative measure. To use your example, I would it's like arresting someone for theft because they made clear their desire to borrow your stuff, looked like they might take it anyway and previously, several potential "borrowers" had already turned out to be thieves. An overreaction, I agree completely, and overturning it was justified, but the guilt also lies, to some degree, with Zelaya.

Also, I question strongly that constitutions serve only to oppress the lower social classes.

Also also, what, in your view is an ideal society? Classic classless?

bluestarultor
11-01-2009, 11:03 PM
Also also, what, in your view is an ideal society? Classic classless?

Barrel doesn't have an ideal society. He just believes current society is wrong. :p

Seriously, though, I'd love to know, too, Barrel. As much as I keep asking the same type of thing, you never seem to give a straight answer. :/

Geminex
11-01-2009, 11:31 PM
Oh, I agree that the current system is wrong. I just think it's rather difficult to make changes for the better... Not just because of forces resisting change, but also because I would imagine that in today's world it's very hard to channel change.
Still, I haven't yet tried, so I shouldn't be talking... -.-

Yumil
11-05-2009, 11:03 PM
I posted this in the old thread, but here was the steps that happened for the coup to start:
Here's a rundown of what happened(from what I can tell, it's quick and dirty):
1.Zelaya wanted to run for another term, their constitution only allowed for one term.
2. Zelaya called a referendum. Problem is, their constitution says that you have to convene a constituent assembly to do so, which only their congress could do. He went out of line.
3. Since his referendum was illegal, he went to Venezuela to print the ballots, since his own people wouldn't do it.
4. Supreme court rules the referendum illegal and unconstitutional and order the military not to distribute the ballots.
5. The General(Romeo Velasquez) tells Zelaya he wont distribute the ballots as per orders from the Supreme Court. Zelaya fires him.
6. Supreme court order Zelaya to reinstate Velasquez. Zelaya refuses.
7. Since the military wont distribute the ballots, Zelaya gets a bunch of civilians together and distributes them.
8. Attorney General decides to have anyone trying to initiate the referendum, that was already declared illegal, arrested.
9. Zelaya was arrested and escorted out of the country.

Now, what happened during the coup I can't condone, but Zelaya was out of line and did break their law. Saying he didn't is ignorant.

There are other aspects though that makes this even more absurd. Like it is illegal in Honduras to even mention increase term limits>.< So, meh, whatever. I gave up on this earlier and dont really care to talk about it much anymore.

Funka Genocide
11-06-2009, 12:18 PM
eh he just sounds like a puppet trying to cut his strings. I'm usually all in favor of working within the legal system to affect change, but in this case it looks like the system is in place to keep power in the hands of the elite and to use "elected officials" as little more than placation for the masses.

Maybe he was trying to become a dictator, but I highly doubt that. People who want to dictate policy use the tactics the Junta did. Essentially, what he did was break the law to promote true democracy.

I can think of a few prime examples in American history where people did just that.

Smarty McBarrelpants
11-28-2009, 02:36 PM
Updates update:
Obama has pulled a Gitmo again and wavered on his promise under republicn pressure such that they said they will support the election results regardless of the fact tht Zelaya is not allowed to run or campaign and there is widespread militarised crackdown on polling booths.


LInkie do: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/nov/27/honduras-election-troops-deployed-zelaya

Is Obama secretely Reagan? No wait, Reagan actually achieved shit rather than peddle dreams that are not only meaningless and woefull inadequate but beyond his ability to achieve.

Also I didn't see it before but I wasn't saying Zelaya wasn't breaking laws. I said the laws were bullshit and should be broken.

Don't we all just love constitutions so very very much! I know I do!

Barrel doesn't have an ideal society. He just believes current society is wrong. :p

Seriously, though, I'd love to know, too, Barrel. As much as I keep asking the same type of thing, you never seem to give a straight answer. :/
Communist. Actual communismn though, not like Vietnam or China or USSR which were all, in some ways, more capitalist than the actual capitalist states.
But in this case I'll settle for a state not run by laws dreamed up 100 years ago by elites scared of the fact that democracy might actually lead to a system that is good and thus crushing it in anyway they can.