Scientology just got owned

[Geminex]

Scientology convicted of Fraud in France. (http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iB4zZrgJt9_M4ltYiwOwQxcAnMmQ)

This amuses me. I have had very little contact with scientology personally, but I have heard quite a lot about it in the media, and the impression I get from that (and Alan Shore in Boston Legal) is that this should have happened a while ago.

Let me justify that.

Scientology is interesting in that it (seemingly) blatantly makes use of people's superstitions and their willingness to believe what they want to and then, instead of abusing this for widespread power over society, seems to be using it to cash in.
Now, normally I'm religiously tolerant, I believe in and will defend an individual's right to their own set of values and beliefs. Abovementioned fine amuses me only because I cannot believe that the founders and managers of this religion actually believe in what they're preaching.

So yeah, this amuses me. It hits the higher-ups in the wallet, limits any aggressive tactics they might use (or be using), sets precedent and hugely damages their credibility. And while I feel sorry for those who take solace from scientology, gain peace from believing that they are destined for greater things and have potential to use psychic powers (to whom this will be a blow), I take far more satisfaction from knowing that this having happened, people will be a lot more hesitant in letting themselves be indoctrinated.

This was a big event. Of course, now the question is... what waves will it make?

[Archbio]

It's a shame that a recent law means that this conviction won't result in Scientology being dissolved in France.

Oh well.

[Marc v1.0]

Tom Cruise will be furious, and use his mind-missiles to attack France for the Glory of Lord Hubbard

[Ravashak]

I feel it's good there's a conviction against them, just a pity the organization isn't banned completely.

[Geminex]

The article says that the judges warned that "scientology should be very carefull", or something along those lines. And I'm not sure that utterly banning the religion would be a good move. Because it does have believers, misguided or not. A lot of the 44000 scientologists in France have done nothing immoral or illegal, simply believing in a number of concepts which we would, politely, define as "science fiction". Banning the religion will stop the top people from further exploiting people's beliefs, but it'll also hurt those who want to practice the "harmless" brand of the religion. I think what's significant is that those who practice scientology immorally do it for the benefit of the money, and that's where the law has to hit them. Hound their step, look for immoral practices, make it unprofitable for them to further remain in France. Uncover scandal after scandal, expose them for what they are. And fining, always continue fining the big guys, the ones that profit.

...

Above is over-idealised and sounds like more of a military campaign than a legal procedure, but you get my point... I hope...

[Nikose Tyris]

Gem, you keep typo-ing that word. It's spelled "Cult", not "Religion".

[Sky Warrior Bob]

I heard the reason why the organization wasn't completely kicked out of France, was because officials were worried it would just go underground. Easier to keep an eye on it if its still out in the open.

At least that was the reasoning I heard in a CNN report.

SWB

[bluestarultor]

I heard the reason why the organization wasn't completely kicked out of France, was because officials were worried it would just go underground. Easier to keep an eye on it if its still out in the open.

At least that was the reasoning I heard in a CNN report.

SWB

I was going to comment on this. Banning religions has worked about as well as banning alcohol or anything else, which is to say not at all. The ban of Christianity in the Roman empire, feudal Japan, and occupied Poland only served to drive it underground. We're talking about a set of religions that were under fire from their inception lasting over 2000 years.

[Donomni]

Isn't it already underground for the most part?

Aside from celebrities, I always thought Scientology was one of those cults where once you're in, it's more or less impossible to get out.

[krogothwolf]

I don't think the celebrities would find it easy getting out either. Also if you leave them they will turn their back on you, friends and family included, making it difficult for you to go anywhere since they seem to somehow have all your money.

[bluestarultor]

Isn't it already underground for the most part?

Aside from celebrities, I always thought Scientology was one of those cults where once you're in, it's more or less impossible to get out.

That's less about being underground and more just about it being a cult. But yes, it's very hard to leave, from what they say, and if you then begin talking shit about it with inside info, they tend to deny you were ever a member and possibly start throwing viruses, death threats, property damage, and ultimately attacks on your person at you to try to shut you up.

[Azisien]

On the same day I passed the Church of Scientology in Ottawa too. I guess my psychic attack worked!

[Krylo]

Azisien uses Psychic!

It's super effective!

Scientology fainted!

[krogothwolf]

On the same day I passed the Church of Scientology in Ottawa too. I guess my psychic attack worked!

Are you sure it was a psychic attack and not you being drunk and shouting obscenities at it?

[Mac]

Are you sure it was a psychic attack and not you being drunk and shouting obscenities at it?

Az doesn't shout obscenities when drunk. He is eloquent and elegant.

[Funka Genocide]

I really wouldn't be all that worried about an "underground" scientology movement. I mean comparing them to christians in roman society is a bit of a stretch on a good day. Nobody is feeding scientologists to lions, and to be honest

Jesus> Lord Zenu

It's a pyramid scam, just becuase it's dressed as a religon(read cult) shouldn't exempt it from being exposed as what it is. People pussy-foot around this stuff entirely too much.

[krogothwolf]

You obviously are confused Funka, Lord Xenu is the either overlord who dropped the aliens into volcano's and destroyed them with hydrogen bombs! He's the Satan of Scientology.

[Funka Genocide]

Do I even have to begin to describe how much more badass Satan is than Xenu?

the Morningstar, first of the fallen, warred with fucking GOD dude.

yeah, ownt.

[krogothwolf]

I'm not saying Xenu is better then Satan, just he's not the Saviour of Scientology.

See http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/38/South_Park_Xenu.jpg

[Funka Genocide]

I am aware, however since evil lord xenu is the most well know figure in scientological mythos, he's the most apt to be compared to the poster boy of christianity.

[Premonitions]

Well would'nt it be Tom Cruise v. Jesus then?

[Funka Genocide]

You know if they actually implemented Tom Cruise as some sort of Demi-God or Saint when he dies that'd almost be legit.

I mean come on, you've seen Cocktail right?

[Mac]

Jesus wins for he is a Vampire Hunter.

[krogothwolf]

I'm fairly sure they'll figure out a way to either clone Tom Cruise or turn him into a robot somehow. So they never lose their saviour.

[Geminex]

or turn him into a robot somehow

...
And then he is declared god-emperor of mankind and humanity expands into the galaxy to conquer and populate world after world with the help of the Hollywood army and the Space-Fanboys. Then the Jennifer Lopez heresy occurs and about half of the Fanboy hordes turn to Chanology and mankind is on the brink of destruction while the forces of fanservice battle those of chaos.

[Lev]

I vote all religious authorities be scrutinized by lie detector tests thoroughly and periodically, just to check that they actually believe what they say.
Same with politicians and, well, everybody.
GG LIES.

[Tev]

Lie detector tests don’t work. Though, interestingly enough, the machine can detect when you clench your butt muscle. That’s not really relevant to anything but its something funny Penn and Teller taught me on their show.

[Lev]

Simple ones don't work, if you have the budget you can set up multilevel detectors to scan for a range of automatic bodylanguage.
There's always room for error and fooling, but generally they will tell if the subject believes what they are doing is shady or not.

[Nikose Tyris]

Simple ones don't work, if you have the budget you can set up multilevel detectors to scan for a range of automatic bodylanguage.
There's always room for error and fooling, but generally they will tell if the subject believes what they are doing is shady or not.

Nope, those don't work either. Best you have is pressure techniques to make people confess to something small, then lie to make it bigger.

True Story.™

[Smarty McBarrelpants]

Yeahb lie detector tests are not anywhere near foolproof, even brain scan tests which should be hardest to fool can be fooled.
There is evidence that they are considerably better than chance but they can still be beaten, both randomly and by strategy.

[krogothwolf]

We could always try to convince the Jedi Religion that Scientology is secretly the Sith, that might do some damage.

[Nikose Tyris]

We could always try to convince the Jedi Religion that Scientology is secretly the Sith, that might do some damage.

I am so behind this you don't even know.

[Mac]

I am so behind this you don't even know.

Thirded!

[bluestarultor]

I'd be on that, but, Jedi religion? There are really people who- or are we talking about spamming the extended universe with propaganda? o_O;

Aside from that, Scientology has frankly an embarrassing amount of money and legal backing. Like, they probably could petition to become a member of NATO at this point. You'd need a small army of people acting in unison, who are equally as zealous and able to spend similar amounts of money. Also, someone totally on the mad science end of the spectrum to protect your web sites and data.

Note that I am totally all for this, but I'm just trying to be realistic here.

[Nikose Tyris]

I'd be on that, but, Jedi religion? There are really people who- or are we talking about spamming the extended universe with propaganda? o_O;

You don't get out much, huh, little friend?

http://www.jedichurch.org/

[Tev]

I'd be on that, but, Jedi religion? There are really people who- or are we talking about spamming the extended universe with propaganda? o_O;
Yes, one year enough people wrote Jedi in the "_______" in the Religioin section of the Census that it became an official religion.

[krogothwolf]

There's also this funny little thing

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2642956/Tesco-supermarket-bans-Jedi-Knight-for-wearing-hood.html

Edit: and this http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article6108993.ece

[bluestarultor]

This amuses and intrigues me. I might actually read some more of that later when I'm ready to do so without laughing hysterically.

I feel so insensitive now, but I literally can't stop just looking at the pages. >_<

[Nikose Tyris]

This amuses and intrigues me. I might actually read some more of that later when I'm ready to do so without laughing hysterically.

I feel so insensitive now, but I literally can't stop just looking at the pages. >_<

...I should point out I declared myself a Jedi not quite a year ago.

[Mac]

...I should point out I declared myself a Jedi not quite a year ago.

It is a legal religion in Canada. Something I don't think Scientology has achieved.

*ponder ponder*

[Magic_Marker]

Yes, one year enough people wrote Jedi in the "_______" in the Religioin section of the Census that it became an official religion.

You sir just gave me an idea.

[krogothwolf]

I know during the 2001 census 500,000 people put Jedi down as their religion.

I think they would have an easy time against the Scientologists...I mean The Sith.

[bluestarultor]

...I should point out I declared myself a Jedi not quite a year ago.

Like I said, I feel insensitive for laughing. Which I probably shouldn't be doing, since I personally believe in all sorts of crazy crap that most would argue goes against my Catholic faith (which I can calmly and logically explain how it doesn't, but people probably wouldn't listen). I really don't mind people believing in what they want to believe in, but I have a hard time taking things seriously when they're based on stuff written as, well, fiction. People can believe anything they want as long as they don't preach at me or cause mayhem, and I'll do the same. That doesn't mean I don't reserve the right to personally think something is goofy; just that religion is full of goofy stuff and I don't feel I have the right to tell them they're wrong unless it's provably so.

[Funka Genocide]

I have a hard time taking things seriously when they're based on stuff written as, well, fiction.

So those dudes that wrote about zombie jesus were serious, but those guys writing about dark lord Xenu are totally full of shit?

I think it takes a bit more than believing your own bullshit to make something, you know... true.

I'd just like to point out the irony of saying "my completely arbitrary creation myth is better than your completely arbitrary creation myth because mine is way older."

[bluestarultor]

So those dudes that wrote about zombie jesus were serious, but those guys writing about dark lord Xenu are totally full of shit?

I think it takes a bit more than believing your own bullshit to make something, you know... true.

I'd just like to point out the irony of saying "my completely arbitrary creation myth is better than your completely arbitrary creation myth because mine is way older."

Frankly, I think people who take my creation myth literally need their heads examined. Of interest, it works quite well as an allegory for the Big Bang on through evolution up to and including humanity.

Also, just to sate your curiosity, I have no idea how zombie Jesus works, which makes it a matter of faith. On the other hand, the people writing the Bible weren't writing the same crap they'd been selling for money previously, so even if it is crazy, at least it's crazy from a much more innocent time when people still thought the world was magic, rather than crazy from when we knew better and wanted to make a pyramid scam.

[Funka Genocide]

I think the metaphor of christianity isn't without merit, but I'm also quite sure that Catholicism does not consider it a metaphor.

In any case, whatever backwards compatibility the Jewish creation myth might have with the big bang theory is purely coincidental, as nobody had any real knowledge of advanced physics back when it was first penned.

And your assumption of a more innocent time needs to replace one "i" word with another. Swap out innocent for ignorant and you've got a better functioning sentence. Innocence is as much a myth as anything. People have been fucking each other over for scraps of control and wealth since they had the capability to do so.

And I mean really, scientology just takes the known working model of religion and applies it to a simpler end goal. Making money.

Major religions didn't just make money, they controlled entire nations, entire continents. They swayed the course of human development towards their own ends. I mean really, a pyramid scam by comparison is almost negligible.

[Magus]

The Force would make more sense to believe in than Lord Xenu and Thetans and so forth.

Oh, by the way guys, Sith and Jedi are actually in the same religion, they're just different denominations. Duh.

By the way, did anyone (Clone Jesus?) ever like go and take Lord Xenu out in a huge intergalactic space battle? Possibly with X-Wings? Or a lightsaber? Didn't think so.

Lord Skywalker > Lord Xenu.

[Funka Genocide]

Darth Vader owns Xenu in a lightsaber duel.

Like, original vader. I guess Anakin from the new movies kind of sucked up all the awesome though.

[bluestarultor]

You know, I stepped away from this, had a couple cans of soup, and I'm ready to make my point in a calm and collected manner.

When looking at religions, there's always an amount of faith involved, which is normal. Religion is there to fill in the gaps conventional knowledge can't. I have no beef with anyone's beliefs because of this. Theirs are as valid as mine.

On the other hand, religion is also generally about being a servant to others in some way. In Hinduism, the better you are in one life, the more you give, care, love, etc., the better off you are materially in the next life. Christianity is all about being a servant to others in life so you earn a reward after you die. Wicca is about doing good for others and using magick to benefit people. Even Satanism teaches that people are supposed to love one another. While all of these need money to function, they don't make it their primary focus. Money is a necessary evil of our social system used to do good.

Scientology, being a pyramid scheme, defies all this. I really don't care what Scientologists believe, but I care very much what they do, and what they do is lead people away from other faiths, hypnotize them in the literal sense, and wring money out of them before they can advance, which no religion on Earth does. When opposed, they initiate attacks in many different vectors, ranging from legal to physical. They've thrown money and lawyers at governments to get everything from religious status to classification as a non-profit organization, which is a status in direct conflict to their operating procedures. Maybe they preach to do good for others. I don't know. But the real organization is focused on serving the higher-ups, and the people at the top serve no one but themselves.

I'll say it again, I really don't care what Scientologists believe. They have as much a right to that as I have to being Catholic. But their organization does not lend itself to being a religion. A cult, maybe, but one centered around writing indistinguishable from admitted fiction written by the same author who has been quoted as saying something to the effect of, "No one has ever gotten rich writing science fiction. If you want to make money, start a religion," and which is more easily compared to a business than a charitable organization. The entire thing is a sham of a religion.

[Funka Genocide]

I hope you can appreciate how utterly ironic everything you posted there might sound to someone from a differing perspective.

When you say "a sham of a religion" it reads like "a sham of a sham." which makes little to no sense.

I don't want to go comparing instances of religious abuse in antiquity to modern religious abuses (because I mean really that's just too easy) but if we look at contemporary religions we can see them being used not only to "wring money out of people" or "brain wash" them, but to control entire populations into what might be considered harmful and counter-intuitive methods of living.

I am wary to cite specifics, but I'm sure you can fill in the blanks.

And if you're comparing it to something like American Christianity, well that's become something of a loud yapping neutered dog compared to many of the worlds religions which don't exist within a secular political environment. Which isn't to say that it's not doing it's best to impose it's dogmatic principles on those lifestyles it considers abberrant, just that these efforts are at least in part curtailed by secular policy.

[NonCon]

I think one difference that stands out is that some religions have used their power, whether you consider it ill-gotten or not, for positive things like aiding the less fortunate or what have you. There is at least a somewhat positive effect, even if you don't think the positive outweighs the negative. So far as I can see, Scientology is all negative.

[Funka Genocide]

Well, Scientology makes people feel better about themselves through delusion.

that's sort of kind of like a positive thing?

man now I sound like I'm defending Scientology.

No but seriously, it's a joke, I'm just saying it's not the only joke in the great big book of jokes that aren't really jokes and are more like blatant metaphors because I'm probably all ready going to get banned anyways and I don't really feel like going out on a completely obvious note but oh shit I guess I just did well fucksauce.

[Geminex]

I would disagree with this point:
I don't want to go comparing instances of religious abuse in antiquity to modern religious abuses (because I mean really that's just too easy) but if we look at contemporary religions we can see them being used not only to "wring money out of people" or "brain wash" them, but to control entire populations into what might be considered harmful and counter-intuitive methods of living.
Religion isn't, I think, normally a scheme conjured up by some mastermind, the only purpose of which is to enslave the people and enable a succession of rulers to live off their sweat. No, I think religion is the product of society. Of intelligence. Of humanity's desire to understand, of the mind's need to know right and wrong, to have security, to understand the world around them. "Where do we come from? Where do we go? How should be act in between?" That sort of thing. Look at the 10 commandments. I'm no devout christian, but I observe people, observe society, and comparing what actually happens with the spirit, the meaning of those 2 stone tables, the world would be a hell of a lot better if everyone observed them. No matter if they were the word of good or just an idea that a guy sitting in a mud hut somewhere had.
This may sound idealistic, but I think religion, belief, faith, is a product of human... nature. Of some higher element of the human mind. And if that element can be called divine, that's fine too.

Anyway, the major difference that a lot of people here seem to see between "true" religion and scientology, is that "true" religion evolved, developed, as a product of society, to address society's needs. And even if there was one instigator, I very much doubt that this instigator intended the specific religion as a scheme to gain money and power. No matter what the results were, how religion was warped through human arrogance and pettiness and idiodicy and blindness...

And yeah, scientology doesn't fit this mental picture I have of religion. It's not a product of society, but an individual. And it's purpose seems to be to extort cash.

[Funka Genocide]

Faith is a product of human society and the innate ability of humanity to question.

Religion is a system built on abusing faith.

[bluestarultor]

I hope you can appreciate how utterly ironic everything you posted there might sound to someone from a differing perspective.

When you say "a sham of a religion" it reads like "a sham of a sham." which makes little to no sense.

I don't want to go comparing instances of religious abuse in antiquity to modern religious abuses (because I mean really that's just too easy) but if we look at contemporary religions we can see them being used not only to "wring money out of people" or "brain wash" them, but to control entire populations into what might be considered harmful and counter-intuitive methods of living.

I am wary to cite specifics, but I'm sure you can fill in the blanks.

And if you're comparing it to something like American Christianity, well that's become something of a loud yapping neutered dog compared to many of the worlds religions which don't exist within a secular political environment. Which isn't to say that it's not doing it's best to impose it's dogmatic principles on those lifestyles it considers abberrant, just that these efforts are at least in part curtailed by secular policy.

Well, yeah, every religion includes indoctrination. Most just don't use hypnotism to do it, which can have long-reaching mental and emotional implications.

Also, while we're dealing with religion as a part of society, I'd like to point out that Judaism and other Middle Eastern religions make a lot of sense in context. There's an entire book of the Torah devoted to health and sanitation. The reason Jews can't eat pork is because of pigs' habit of eating waste, which can mean disease in the meat. In the Western world, that's not an issue these days, but back when it was written, it prevented a lot of illness. The same goes for washing one's hands under running water. Europeans, even Christian ones, ignored that, leading to doctors causing more harm than good as they stewed their hands in more and more filth and disease with every patient, because they rinsed their hands in basins. If they'd stuck to that particular ancient knowledge, things would have been much cleaner.

And while I'd agree that religion is often subject to abuse (Crusades? Hello?), the basis of it is generally in the right place, which is doing good and spreading the word to spread the good. Religion is often misguided, but it is that way because misguided people get their hands on it. What religion doesn't do is prey. That's what cults do. One could argue the minimal damage cults have caused over the ages, but that's because they tend to be small and not hold much power.

Religions don't wring money out of people at all, by the way. They survive on donations, which are given freely. You don't donate, no one really gives a hoot, and it doesn't impede your participation. The most most religions ask is for you to show up on a regular basis, and a lot of them are even pretty forgiving of that.

[NonCon]

Well, Scientology makes people feel better about themselves through delusion.

that's sort of kind of like a positive thing?

You're stretching things there. You know it, and I know it.

[Funka Genocide]

I'll just say this in regards to your last post blue.

Your perception seems to be that religion is an inherently "good" system that is abused by "bad" people.

I say it's more like a gun emplacement in a schoolyard. I mean sure you can blame the kids for mowing each other down, but why'd you put it there in the first place?

@NonCon: well I'm kind of trying to think of something "legit" religions do that is good, and all I can come up with is the same answer.

[bluestarultor]

I'll just say this in regards to your last post blue.

Your perception seems to be that religion is an inherently "good" system that is abused by "bad" people.

I say it's more like a gun emplacement in a schoolyard. I mean sure you can blame the kids for mowing each other down, but why'd you put it there in the first place?

A gun emplacement doesn't offer comfort, support, rules for living as a productive member of society, or explanations for things people don't understand. :J



Edit: Also, religions, or at least Christian ones, have always been charitable organizations and patrons of education and public health.

[Funka Genocide]

A gun emplacement doesn't offer comfort, support, rules for living as a productive member of society, or explanations for things people don't understand. :J

it offers the comfort of knowing you can shoot people that don't agree with you.

it supports your efforts to control the outcome of disputes

it doesn't provide rules, but the guy behind the gun can pretty much dictate whatever rules he wants so long as he's still got his finger on the trigger

and it has no explanations, but it represents a position of power and will pretty much let you come up with any hairbrained explanation you desire, because anyone who disagrees with you can be made to go away violently.

and I wouldn't go throwing around "always" like that blue. Because always is forever, and if christianity was a patron of education in the middle ages, well then I'm probably a super hero. They horded knowledge for themselves and used it as a means to exert control over the ignorant populace.

you know I have a counter for anything you could possibly say on this subject ever. I'm just throwing that out there. I'm only replying because I'm bored and find the mental exercise enjoyable, I really hope you aren't intent on proving something to me though, because it's going to be a frustrating and ultimately fruitless process. So I think I'll just stop replying to you and let you make your rebuttal without contest since this is like an infinite loop combo that nobody cares about.

[Archbio]

A gun emplacement doesn't offer comfort, support, rules for living as a productive member of society, or explanations for things people don't understand.

Forum administrators also provide us with rules! Such as a ban on religious discussion. Just a random example off the top of my head.

[bluestarultor]

Edit: You know what? Archbio is right. This isn't going to end well, and since people are arguing just to be contrary, I'm going to step out. I'm actually chalking this one up to the good, though, because I was able to hold my own without losing my cool.

[NonCon]

Forum administrators also provide us with rules! Such as a ban on religious discussion.

I think calling this a religious discussion is giving it too much credit. I do think it should probably stop, though.

[Funka Genocide]

I think calling this a religious discussion is giving it too much credit. I do think it should probably stop, though.


I think calling your face a religious discussion is giving it too much credit.

OOOOH! SNAP!

[Archbio]

I think calling this a religious discussion is giving it too much credit.

If I didn't agree with this I probably would have said something to participate in it, and thus becoming a fugitive hunted by the law.

As I understand it though there's an exception for Scientology.

[NonCon]

I think calling your face a religious discussion is giving it too much credit.

You have obviously not seen my face.

[Funka Genocide]

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y273/Akio666/467px-CobraCommander-150.jpg

A Picture of Cobra Commander kicking a puppy.

[Geminex]

Aaaand cut, close thread, forget discussion ever happened, get cobra commander halloween costume.

[Fifthfiend]

I want you to know this was not a hardship for me; I've always had a perverse fascination with goatish little men.