The fuck is wrong with people......

[Rymramoch]

This makes me very angry......


http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/10/27/california.gang.rape.investigation/index.html


A California high school student who police said was gang raped in a two-and-a-half-hour assault outside a homecoming dance remained hospitalized in stable condition Monday, two days after she was flown from the attack scene in critical condition.


Investigators said as many as 15 people, all males, stood around watching the assault, but did not call police or help the victim, a 15-year-old student at Richmond High School in suburban San Francisco.

"As people announced over time that this was going on, more people came to see, and some actually participated," Gagan said.

And I beleive I heard some lawyer on the T.V. say that the people who just stood and watched are not legally culpable in any way.....

[Kyanbu The Legend]

This makes me very angry......


http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/10/27/california.gang.rape.investigation/index.html






And I believe I heard some lawyer on the T.V. say that the people who just stood and watched are not legally culpable in any way.....

Well not in that state anyway...

[Marc v1.0]

I takes a special kind of sickness to stand there and watch

[Kyanbu The Legend]

I takes a special kind of sickness to stand there and watch

I'd go as far as to say that most of them probably are mentally ill.

[Tev]

I wondered when this story would break. I heard about it this morning on the radio and was waiting for it to pop up on Google News so I could talk about it.

Anyway, when I heard about it, at the time only two of the six boys that partook in the rape were arrested, the three other boys that helped but didn't technically "participate" were being defended by their parents for being "to scared to act" even though it was fairly obvious that they knew what they were doing, and the nineteen-some other people that watched the rape going on were not being charged because there really is no law against watching a girl get gang-raped I guess. As far as I'm concerned they all need to be locked up and beaten within an inch of their lives or worse. There is absolutely no excuse for this kind of crap.

[MasterOfMagic]

A whole goddamn crowd watching, and not one person so much as picks up their cell phone?

*headdesk*

The police find her only because someone overhears them talking about it after the fact?

*headdeskheaddeskheaddesk*

What the hell happens to create that many depraved people in the same place?

[bluestarultor]

There really should be an accountability law put in place. One that criminalizes failure to report a crime. Far too many people are like this and it kills me when stories like this one pop up periodically. In some cases, people use the excuse they're afraid something would happen to them, but this is not one of those cases. When nineteen people are standing around in open space watching a crime with no immediate danger to them, there is no excuse for not a single one of them reporting the crime, or for God's sake, at least tipping off an authority of some sort. I'd imagine there was at least one chaperone at the dance. With all the millions of people there, keeping track of who said what would be nearly impossible anyway, so it's not like word might slip that so-and-so ratted and needs to be beaten to death, or at least the chances are lower.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

There really should be an accountability law put in place. One that criminalizes failure to report a crime. Far too many people are like this and it kills me when stories like this one pop up periodically. In some cases, people use the excuse they're afraid something would happen to them, but this is not one of those cases. When nineteen people are standing around in open space watching a crime with no immediate danger to them, there is no excuse for not a single one of them reporting the crime, or for God's sake, at least tipping off an authority of some sort. I'd imagine there was at least one chaperone at the dance. With all the millions of people there, keeping track of who said what would be nearly impossible anyway, so it's not like word might slip that so-and-so ratted and needs to be beaten to death, or at least the chances are lower.

Most of the reason people hate to report in is because they feel the Police are a joke. Which most of the time ends up being true but only because the police are underarmed and sometimes under staffed as well.Now if the Police where effective, had greater numbers, and more prepared, we wouldn't after to worry about stuff like this. Or here's a thought, lets put our military units that aren't doing anything to good use over here.

[Grand Master Kickface]

The more people that are around to witness a crime, the more they expect someone else to do something about it. No one wants to take up the burden of responsibility, and when there's that many people around it becomes easier to rationalize it away with, "Well clearly someone must already be doing something, so there's no need for me to get involved." Thus in their minds the police have already been called, and any further personal effort would be a waste. Except they don't realize that everyone else is thinking this exact same thing, so nobody ever makes the call.

So if you want to kill somebody, make sure you do it on a street corner in broad daylight with thousands of witnesses!

[Loyal]

Or here's a thought, lets put our military units that aren't doing anything to good use over here.I'm not sure that'd be entirely feasible for morale, both for the police forces and the military.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

I'm not sure that'd be entirely feasible for morale, both for the police forces and the military.

Immoral but necessary in order to reduce the crime rate. Besides using the military helps make up for the lack of police officers.

[bluestarultor]

Immoral but necessary in order to reduce the crime rate. Besides using the military helps make up for the lack of police officers.

No, no, morale. As in the group's combined feel-good and not-run factor. I'm not explaining this well. It's like if the military has low morale, they're sick of shitty conditions and aren't apt to do their best.


Edit: This should help: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/morale

[Funka Genocide]

this is one of those times when its ok to break somebodies neck in public.

I don't understand how something like this happens, you see a rape happening, you call the police.

I personally would have probably had my ass kicked or killed someone, but I'd have stopped that shit.

this makes me so angry.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

No, no, morale. As in the group's combined feel-good and not-run factor. I'm not explaining this well. It's like if the military has low morale, they're sick of shitty conditions and aren't apt to do their best.


Edit: This should help: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/morale

Oh that's what he meant. Yeah that would make things worse. But I was thinking more along the lines of giving the military troops jobs in law enforcement So that their not just sitting around. But yeah I see what you mean.

[Kepor]

Or we could hire more police officers.

Also, I have severe reservations about using military personnel in a law-enforcement capacity.

[bluestarultor]

Oh that's what he meant. Yeah that would make things worse. But I was thinking more along the lines of giving the military troops jobs in law enforcement So that there not just setting around. But yeah I see what you mean.

They kind of already do, to an extent. If you're ex-military, you're given a strong preference for being hired as a police officer, and there are the Military Police. Obviously, if you're still in the military, not everyone can be an MP, and if not, there are only so many police jobs, but the point is that it is done.

I think what you're suggesting carries the negative baggage of being like calling in the National Guard, which generally leaves a bad taste in people's mouths because of how it was used in the past. Putting military on the streets also could result in even worse problems than having asshole police, because my military friends have told me about special laws regarding "civilian mistreatment of military personnel," not in those words, but that's what it amounts to. Basically, I'm told there's a whole set of laws out there that give active military personnel a lot of weight to throw around in court if a civilian so much as looks at them funny. I think you can see where some of that might be abused if we make them the police mk. II. Obviously, not by everyone, just to be clear, but there is probably room for abuse.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

They kind of already do, to an extent. If you're ex-military, you're given a strong preference for being hired as a police officer, and there are the Military Police. Obviously, if you're still in the military, not everyone can be an MP, and if not, there are only so many police jobs, but the point is that it is done.

I think what you're suggesting carries the negative baggage of being like calling in the National Guard, which generally leaves a bad taste in people's mouths because of how it was used in the past. Putting military on the streets also could result in even worse problems than having asshole police, because my military friends have told me about special laws regarding "civilian mistreatment of military personnel," not in those words, but that's what it amounts to. Basically, I'm told there's a whole set of laws out there that give active military personnel a lot of weight to throw around in court if a civilian so much as looks at them funny. I think you can see where some of that might be abused if we make them the police mk. II. Obviously, not by everyone, just to be clear, but there is probably room for abuse.
Ah I see. Okay I now see that maybe that was a bit of a bad Idea. Wasn't aware of those laws.:sweatdrop:

[bluestarultor]

Ah I see. Okay I now see that maybe that was a bit of a bad Idea. Wasn't aware of those laws.:sweatdrop:

It's probably not as bad as I make it sound. Just some stuff I seem to recall includes things like if a civilian gets in a fight with a military person, they'll get their ass creamed in court, something about how dissing them for being military can have charges pressed under a sort of harassment type of thing with stiffer penalties, etc. It's not like not holding the door for them is a capital offense, but they do get some rather annoying legal perks that could be used to scare the common person.


Edit: You know, we have a lot of actual military around here. Can we get someone to weigh in on this?

[Viridis]

The more people that are around to witness a crime, the more they expect someone else to do something about it. No one wants to take up the burden of responsibility, and when there's that many people around it becomes easier to rationalize it away with, "Well clearly someone must already be doing something, so there's no need for me to get involved." Thus in their minds the police have already been called, and any further personal effort would be a waste. Except they don't realize that everyone else is thinking this exact same thing, so nobody ever makes the call.

It's this more then anything for the crowd, I'd say. There's a strong mentality to act with the rest of the crowd. I also hear that if you ever kind yourself in this situation of no one helping you, the best way to break the mentality is to ask someone specific in the crowd to help you, and thus make them aware they burden has not been taken off them.

Don't know if this would have helped in this specific instance, just thinking about the concept.

[Funka Genocide]

as far as I know there's no special laws regarding mistreatment of military personnel, in fact its generally the opposite.

they were pretty thorough in beating the "you can't do this" stuff into our heads in basic, but it's not as though I sat down and read the entire uniform code of military justice, although most likely something like that isn't in the UCMJ because... well civilians don't fall under the UCMJ.

maybe it's pertaining to national guard forces during a policing action, but other than that I don't think you get any sort of special protection just for putting on a uniform.

(as a matter of fact all I ever remember was moderate prejudice)

[Alipeewee]

Never mind the fact that nobody called the police, why didn't the crowd people (who, presumably, didn't like the rape) go over to the rapists and beat their heads in? Or at least, y'know, try and STOP the rape. I mean, if I saw someone trying to rape a woman, I wouldn't just stand there. I wouldn't even just stand there with a phone against my ear and ask for the police. I'd be looking for something big and heavy and preferably spiky to smash the rapist in the face with.

We need more damn vigilante justice these days

[Seil]

Stuff like this should stay in comic books.

[PyrosNine]

The important thing is that you don't let yourself succumb to the sheeple mentality, and you know why Cops will always spring towards trouble and danger? Because they have taken psychological training to act in the face of a crime and furthermore have heightened social responsibility to act in such a situation. Ordinary people won't. The only difference between a hero and his thousand peers is that he decided to act.

Fuck the phrase "Don't be a hero", it's said by people who just watched, or by people who are afraid that you'll do just that and present a real challenge.

The real sick thing is that being spotted by these people didn't stop them from raping. No public shame, no realization that there were witnesses and thus no escape from guilt and arrest. It's as if they were on drugs or out of their mind when this happened.

A long time ago, in a similar incident that is used as a textbook example of this, people saw and heard a woman in their city being brutally raped and murder by a deranged individual, who at first fled when his prey awoke the neighbors with her screaming. But no one actually left their houses to do anything, even though there were people at their doorsteps watching. People reportedly even made a motion to do something, only to be stopped by a family member and told "no, leave it to someone else."

So the rapist notices this, goes back, and finishes the job, and mentions to reporters and interrogation that he was just as shocked as everybody else that no one came to help her, but that wouldn't stop him from doing the deed.

The study of this incident was what lead to the theory of responsibility displacement as psychologists and social scientists grappled with the "why?" of how people could stand still and do nothing while someone else was in danger, and when no one was actively telling them not to do so. If it had been 1 or 2 people there when the rapist had struck, they could have taken care of them or successfully rallied the the neighbors to fight him off, but as previously described by the other forumers, the need to rescue her was displaced amongst all of them, and ultimately left to law enforcement. The townspeople reportedly felt no guilt, but have since gone and retracted those statements against sharp public outcry.

Since then, there have been attempts to remove this condition and raise it's awareness. Remember those public safety and health educational videos shown to you in high school health class, where they would show a common or workplace accident, and tell you what to do? And one of the steps is always to take charge, and then assign roles to everyone else, and if the victim is still conscious, to point to whom they want to help them.

You probably at one point thought, "This is stupid, if someone was hurt, of course I would go and help them" and "Why are they all just being asshats and looking at each other before helping? The victim is lying there on the ground!" That was there to show a possible situation (without showing the reality of rape to highschoolers) where responsibility may be diffused amongst the group, leading to no one knowing what to do.

The truth is, no matter how good a person you are and how much you think you're a good person, we're all more under the control of social expectations rather than our moral expectations.

[DarkDrgon]

And I beleive I heard some lawyer on the T.V. say that the people who just stood and watched are not legally culpable in any way.....

Not true, they can all be charged for Criminal Negligence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_negligence).

[Jagos]

... I'm just gonna inquire a few things.

Why should 15 year olds who probably don't know what's going on or may not have had enough experience in "dark endeavors" to be held legally culpable in a horrendous scene? Bear in mind, these are usually people that might not know how to act in a scene such as the one described.

I mean, let's think about this for a second... You have up to 10 people holding down this girl... You don't know who is in on it and who isn't. And the other thing that comes to mind is that the more people that are witness to an event the more likely that few will respond. What is your first reaction? Hesitation.

Personally, I'd be one of the people that would go to call the police by slowly skulking away. And in 2 1/2 hours? Someone was in on it with a voyeuristic fetish or something...

But what really kills me is this here:
"As people announced over time that this was going on, more people came to see, and some actually participated," Gagan said.

They joined the crowd to continue in the act. More than likely friends, I dunno but damn does the hive mind work in mysterious ways...

Second, Military police? There's a reason that states ask for the army to come into a place. Martial Law is NO joke. Believe me on that one.

Recruitment of more police officers will more than likely lead to more corruption and in CA, that's already a huge issue in places like San Diego or LA. Are we sure that would solve or prevent a problem or create new and different ones?

"Don't be a hero",

Rule #17 - Rules sometimes are made to be broken. :)

[phil_]

We need more damn vigilante justice these daysVigilantes go to jail.I'd be looking for something big and heavy and preferably spiky to smash the rapist in the face with.So do people who bash in heads with big, heavy things.

Even beyond that, if someone did try to stop it, what would they get? Days of police interrogation, accusations that they were in on it, and "as many as 15 people, all males" plus all their friends who want you dead. High risk of getting killed or arrested weighed against zero reward kinda adds up to "pretend you didn't see anything."

To me, the rapists are terrible people who deserve to be punished and the crowd are normal people in a nightmarish situation.

[Funka Genocide]

Vigilantes go to jail.So do people who bash in heads with big, heavy things.

Even beyond that, if someone did try to stop it, what would they get? Days of police interrogation, accusations that they were in on it, and "as many as 15 people, all males" plus all their friends who want you dead. High risk of getting killed or arrested weighed against zero reward kinda adds up to "pretend you didn't see anything."

To me, the rapists are terrible people who deserve to be punished and the crowd are normal people in a nightmarish situation.

someone knows very little about defense laws.

All you have to do is justify that an assault was underway, then you're justified in using commensurate force. Sure it might be a hassle to figure out in courts, but if you're telling me a jury is going to convict you of assault for fighting off MULTIPLE RAPISTS then you're living in another world man.

you can justify an attempt at murder if somoene tries to punch you in the head, meaning you're well within your legal rights to kill said offender.

Also, if you're looking for some manner of reward for saving a high school girl from rapists then yeah, I guess you would be one of the dudes standing around with a hard on.

[phil_]

Also, if you're looking for some manner of reward for saving a high school girl from rapists then yeah, I guess you would be one of the dudes standing around with a hard on.Eh, I grew up in a place where I would be killed by these rapists' buddies if I didn't skip town after helping, so my views are a bit skewed. I can't help that knives cut me and bullets wound me. Of course, I wouldn't be standing around with a hard on, either, because her boyfriend might start shooting. I'd be out of there the second I heard something was up.

I commend you on your commitment to selfless good deeds, though. If there were more people willing to risk jail time and a life where they can never go back to where they grew up to jump into a dangerous situation with no knowledge of what precipitated it for a stranger, maybe the world would be a better place.

[Bells]

someone knows very little about defense laws.

All you have to do is justify that an assault was underway, then you're justified in using commensurate force. Sure it might be a hassle to figure out in courts, but if you're telling me a jury is going to convict you of assault for fighting off MULTIPLE RAPISTS then you're living in another world man.

you can justify an attempt at murder if somoene tries to punch you in the head, meaning you're well within your legal rights to kill said offender.

Also, if you're looking for some manner of reward for saving a high school girl from rapists then yeah, I guess you would be one of the dudes standing around with a hard on.

Funk, you say stuff like that like it was really that easy...

Look, i totally get the "i wouldn't let this go on" mentality. I was like that too... it just took that one time i tried to get a purse thief on the run, knocked him down and saw him pointing a revolver at me, which he DID fire and i have no clue on ho much i shat my pants when all he hitted was the left side of my jacket. Now i know better.

You can tell me that if you were there you would try and stop that scene, and really, i think it's noble and all that. I really honestly do. The idea is, but you wouldn't really do it. And you shouldn't do it.

Yeah, it's awful, and yeah i would also put a bullet in their heads with no regret. But this is just me talking. I wouldn't really pick up a handgun and pull the trigger on their heads... i really wish i could, but i wont.

Self-Defense laws aren't worth shit in situations like this. Until you can actually prove yourself to be the good guy, you're already marked as a possible suspect and "That guy who got angry he couldn't get some tail, so he just started beating people. He was probably the one who started it all and now is just trying to save face"

Just so you see where i'm coming with this

All you have to do is justify that an assault was underway, then you're justified in using commensurate force. Sure it might be a hassle to figure out in courts, but if you're telling me a jury is going to convict you of assault for fighting off MULTIPLE RAPISTS ...

Now you need to prove that you have the right to assault these people (yeah... the Rapists. That's the first thing any lawyer will toss at you). You have to prove that you're not a part of it. You have to convince every member in the jury of that. Depending on the situation you might have to convince people that this girl was not to blame as some sort of Public Sexual Exhibition gone Bad!

No man, i'm not "Tripping balls". I'm saying that Lawyers and rapists are full of shit and they aren't going to pull any punches to push you into that grey area where you might just look like one of them. Just enough to ruin your life or put you in jail or on TV for it.

Also, it only takes one of those people in there with a gun or a knife and you could be dead... even worst, maybe one of the guys raping the girl has a friend in the crowd, maybe two, maybe 5.

Also, you think you can get one reliable witness for your case in a crowd of people who watch a rape and let it be?

See, i get what you're thinking. But it's just not practical. Not Real. We need to know our place. And in a situation like this our place is to call the police as fast as possible. Or any Authority close by that might help. And if you think you can get away with it, then you can actually take pictures or film it to provide evidence that would put these people away. That's what we can do. It's not perfect, but damn it, if you want to do more than join your police force or the army.

[Funka Genocide]

yeah that's great, but I guess there's just a fundamental difference between us then. I was the jackass that joined the military a week after 9-11. You're going to die some day, I'm not dying while regretting I didn't try and save someone I could have. I'd be ok with dying trying to do just that, not happy about it mind you, but thats how shit goes.

Also there's a big difference betweena purse snatcher and a rapist. I see someone run off witha woman's purse, I call the police, he's just a robber. Money can be made again.

I see someone raping a woman, I do something about it. You should too. A person's human dignity and sense of security are forever shattered by an event like this, its not like a fucking wallet.

and yes, I would put a bullet in their heads, with little to no hesitation. I've seen and known people that died and didn't deserve it, what makes you think I'd hesitate to kill someone that did?

but you are right about one thing, I haven't been in this particular situation before and hopefully never will. So yeah, it's just me spouting out words. But I've risked my life for shit I didn't even really believe in before, so I don't doubt my own resolve.

I mean seriously, don't assume you're the only motherfucker that's ever had a gun fired at them before and then level a bunch of suppositions at someone.

[Kepor]

Not true, they can all be charged for Criminal Negligence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_negligence).

Really doubt that would stick.


Recruitment of more police officers will more than likely lead to more corruption and in CA, that's already a huge issue in places like San Diego or LA. Are we sure that would solve or prevent a problem or create new and different ones?


As number of police officers seems to have a clear impact on number of violent crimes, I think that would be a worthwhile trade-off.


Even beyond that, if someone did try to stop it, what would they get? Days of police interrogation, accusations that they were in on it, and "as many as 15 people, all males" plus all their friends who want you dead. High risk of getting killed or arrested weighed against zero reward kinda adds up to "pretend you didn't see anything."

someone knows very little about defense laws.

All you have to do is justify that an assault was underway, then you're justified in using commensurate force. Sure it might be a hassle to figure out in courts, but if you're telling me a jury is going to convict you of assault for fighting off MULTIPLE RAPISTS then you're living in another world man.

you can justify an attempt at murder if somoene tries to punch you in the head, meaning you're well within your legal rights to kill said offender.


Self-defense laws can get rather... complicated from state to state.

In all probability though, the best way to stop a situation like this would probably be by screaming or creating a ruckus rather than wading in swinging.

[Premonitions]

As number of police officers seems to have a clear impact on number of violent crimes, I think that would be a worthwhile trade-off.

Well, Police often commit violent crimes themselves so It's not an automatic given that more police=less crimes
In all probability though, the best way to stop a situation like this would probably be by screaming or creating a ruckus rather than wading in swinging.

That's a POSSIBLE solution, except she might have been already making quite a bit of noise, to no avail, and they were in public and less inclined to just stop something for social reasons,(getting caught) as they've shown by doing this horrible shit in public.

Sometimes, you just got to hit a motherfucker with a brick.

[Funka Genocide]

People will do anything to justify cowardice. No one wants to live their life under the onus of guilt, so they'll do exactly what a lot of you are doing, which is to say come up with a myriad reasons why the right thing is the wrong thing.

Maybe your own personal contentedness and well being are paramount, and you aren't willing to venture far from your comfort zone, you want to have this justification handy if and when something terrible happens around you, but then I have to wonder what happens if something terrible happens to you?

I suppose you'll be perfectly fine when that would be savior decides better of it and runs off to make a phone call, while the last few minutes of your life are lived in agony and despair, waiting for the police to show up and investigate your murder.

This is what happens when you forget your humanity, people stand shoulder to shoulder witnessing an atrocity, and society beggars the questiong why?

[CABAL49]

I always have my phone with me, so I would probably call the police before I tried to kick some ass. Just in case my ass gets kicked and it happens anyways.

[Funka Genocide]

I'd just like to point out that I am in no way against calling the police, that's the smartest thing to do. I'm just pointing out that you have the ability to physically stop it. You go pull the fucker off of the girl, you drag her away from the crowd, you fucking do something.

[Premonitions]

Seriously, like, all the attempts to defend the behavior of the people who stood around is crazy as fuck, like, the guys who ran away? sure, they were scared and confused, the people all the way down the street who heard something, but assumed it was kids dicking around? sure, the people who saw a mass of idiot teenagers and said "stupid-ass kids" and walked on? fine. But the people who just stood there? hell no, Regardless of who they are, their actions were downright evil. Their behavior was fucked up, regardless of anything else. They should, DAMN WELL feel bad about that shit, and nobody should be trying to spare their feelings right now.

[Funka Genocide]

when I hear about things like this I always think, what if that was my sister? my cousin? My girlfriend?

because she damn sure is somebody elses sister, daughter, girlfriend or cousin.

the sense of overwhleming rage I feel at this being treated like some kind of sociological experiment is hard to describe.

[katiuska]

The important thing is that you don't let yourself succumb to the sheeple mentality, and you know why Cops will always spring towards trouble and danger? Because they have taken psychological training to act in the face of a crime and furthermore have heightened social responsibility to act in such a situation. Ordinary people won't. The only difference between a hero and his thousand peers is that he decided to act.

Fuck the phrase "Don't be a hero", it's said by people who just watched, or by people who are afraid that you'll do just that and present a real challenge.

The real sick thing is that being spotted by these people didn't stop them from raping. No public shame, no realization that there were witnesses and thus no escape from guilt and arrest. It's as if they were on drugs or out of their mind when this happened.

A long time ago, in a similar incident that is used as a textbook example of this, people saw and heard a woman in their city being brutally raped and murder by a deranged individual, who at first fled when his prey awoke the neighbors with her screaming. But no one actually left their houses to do anything, even though there were people at their doorsteps watching. People reportedly even made a motion to do something, only to be stopped by a family member and told "no, leave it to someone else."

So the rapist notices this, goes back, and finishes the job, and mentions to reporters and interrogation that he was just as shocked as everybody else that no one came to help her, but that wouldn't stop him from doing the deed.

The study of this incident was what lead to the theory of responsibility displacement as psychologists and social scientists grappled with the "why?" of how people could stand still and do nothing while someone else was in danger, and when no one was actively telling them not to do so. If it had been 1 or 2 people there when the rapist had struck, they could have taken care of them or successfully rallied the the neighbors to fight him off, but as previously described by the other forumers, the need to rescue her was displaced amongst all of them, and ultimately left to law enforcement. The townspeople reportedly felt no guilt, but have since gone and retracted those statements against sharp public outcry.

Since then, there have been attempts to remove this condition and raise it's awareness. Remember those public safety and health educational videos shown to you in high school health class, where they would show a common or workplace accident, and tell you what to do? And one of the steps is always to take charge, and then assign roles to everyone else, and if the victim is still conscious, to point to whom they want to help them.

You probably at one point thought, "This is stupid, if someone was hurt, of course I would go and help them" and "Why are they all just being asshats and looking at each other before helping? The victim is lying there on the ground!" That was there to show a possible situation (without showing the reality of rape to highschoolers) where responsibility may be diffused amongst the group, leading to no one knowing what to do.

The truth is, no matter how good a person you are and how much you think you're a good person, we're all more under the control of social expectations rather than our moral expectations.

Kitty Genovese. It's also the incident that inspires Rorschach to don a mask and take up crime fighting in The Watchmen.

Basically, what it comes down to is that the more bystanders there are, the less likely any one of them will be to help. There are a lot of reasons why this happens--people figure that in a large crowd, there's got to be someone else who'll help, probably someone more qualified, and they also figure that if everyone else is just standing around, it's because nothing needs to be done, like maybe someone already called the cops or something. The point of those studies, though, was not to excuse the behavior, it was to understand why it happens and how to change it. If you see or hear something, you have to be the one to take charge, and if you're the victim and you're able to do so, you should single someone out directly to help you.

[bluestarultor]

when I hear about things like this I always think, what if that was my sister? my cousin? My girlfriend?

because she damn sure is somebody elses sister, daughter, girlfriend or cousin.

the sense of overwhleming rage I feel at this being treated like some kind of sociological experiment is hard to describe.

Seem to remember a story about a bunch of guys who got blind drunk, found a random girl in the park, and all but one of them raped her before they murdered her. Come the morning after, turns out the guy who didn't join in had to come in to ID the body of his sister in the park.

Yeah...

[phil_]

People will do anything to justify cowardice. No one wants to live their life under the onus of guilt, so they'll do exactly what a lot of you are doing, which is to say come up with a myriad reasons why the right thing is the wrong thing.I know I never said or implied that I'm not a coward and generally bad person. I just know how I react to bad situations, which is by avoiding getting involved.... what happens if something terrible happens to you?No one will help me and I'd suffer whatever terrible thing befell me if I couldn't get away myself, which I probably couldn't. I'm not sure how pretending that I'd help this girl or even go within twenty feet of the crowd would change that.

I'm not really sure what purpose this post had beyond calling me a bad person for not pretending I'm bulletproof/cop-proof and trying to scare me into... becoming a vigilante or something? Maybe make me feel bad? I see that you've made another post about how angry you are while I wrote this one, but, as far as this "being treated like some kind of sociological experiment," I'm treating it more as "This shit and worse happens every day, and my getting mad about it doesn't change the past." Might just be me. I guess I should explicitly state that I feel bad for this girl about what happened and repeat that I hope the rapists are punished, though I wish you had more faith in my small amount of decency that I didn't have to specifically say that I'm against raping people.

[Gregness]

Funk, you say stuff like that like it was really that easy...

*snip*

See, i get what you're thinking. But it's just not practical. Not Real. We need to know our place...

My place is saving someone from a trauma they're going to carry with them for the rest of their lives.

You're right though Bells, it isn't easy. And you're also right that simply calling the police is probably the "right" thing to do in that it's the thing least likely to get you killed. I just don't think I could live with myself if I put my own well being so far ahead of someone else who couldn't protect themselves.

[Funka Genocide]

understanding the limitations of text based communications, I can understand why you think my statements would be directed at you specifically, but they aren't. They're directed at people who try and pretend we're all powerless in the face of attrocity.

I guess you fall in to that category, but it's not a personal statement against you.

I really don't care if you fashion yourself as some sort of defeatist realist or whatever. To be honest I'm more personally insulted by Bells' comments, but I guess he's just assuming that I haven't been in life or death situations before, which is a safe assumption him not knowing my life. So basically I'm just angered by this news story and by the general apathy/denial I see from people in regards to it.

[Invisible Queen]

The nice thing about rape is that the rapists tend toward the horizontal, which places their neck at a comfortable height to kick like a football. Hit it with your toes, that's where the power is, and since it's not a ballgame you don't have to worry about aiming. Do it right and there's one less asshole women have to be scared of. If that's not worth going to prison I don't know what is.

[Hawk]

Everyone who has posted in this thread with the notion of "get in there and fucking take those fuckers out, without regard for your personal safety", much respect to you all.

To everyone else, I am truly shocked. How could you not do something short of smashing someones face in with a blunt instrument to stop this shit??? You do not stand around while shit like this happens, no matter the consequences.

[CABAL49]

I'd just like to point out that I am in no way against calling the police, that's the smartest thing to do. I'm just pointing out that you have the ability to physically stop it. You go pull the fucker off of the girl, you drag her away from the crowd, you fucking do something.

Well yeah, but if you get your ass beat by the other 20 people and she gets raped anyways, then you are the guy in the article who probably died for that 2 1/2 hour rape. I am just saying it would be better to call the police before you try to rescue her. My objective would be to simply prevent as much harm to the girl as possible. This seems like the best way. I guess they were a bunch of 16 year olds, but all it takes is one taking out a weapon. At the very least you are a distraction so the police can get to her.

[MasterOfMagic]

Everyone who has posted in this thread with the notion of "get in there and fucking take those fuckers out, without regard for your personal safety", much respect to you all.

To everyone else, I am truly shocked. How could you not do something short of smashing someones face in with a blunt instrument to stop this shit??? You do not stand around while shit like this happens, no matter the consequences.
I have to say, if all I see is a group of guys with someone screaming and crying in the middle, I'd be hestiant to dive in too. I make no excuse for this, this is cowardly. I'm a cowardly person. I would certainly call the cops, and try to get more immediate help, however, and the fact that no one did even that is really what's appaling. It wouldn't have carried any risk with it at all.

I like to imagine I would bust some heads in, but I fully accept that I might not. Who knows.

[Mr.Bookworm]

The nice thing about rape is that the rapists tend toward the horizontal, which places their neck at a comfortable height to kick like a football. Hit it with your toes, that's where the power is, and since it's not a ballgame you don't have to worry about aiming. Do it right and there's one less asshole women have to be scared of. If that's not worth going to prison I don't know what is.

True, true, but I would use a strong kick to the stomach to knock him off and wind him. Then use a series of swift, strong foot stomps to destroy his reproductive capability. If he has friends, knee them in the face while they're rising, and repeat the stomping.

But seriously, this is completely and totally horrible.

[Fifthfiend]

I was the jackass that joined the military a week after 9-11.

Sure, the Navy.

Pffffffffft.

We need more damn vigilante justice these days

Immma tell you what the solution to gangrape ain't.

It ain't people going around in big groups looking to do violence against people they imagine have done wrong.

Just throwin' that out there.

[Hawk]

But Fifth, how then will we ever get masked vigilante hero types running around patrolling the streets at night and keeping us all safe?? Are you really going to say you're against the idea of The Goddamn Batman??!!

True, true, but I would use a strong kick to the stomach to knock him off and wind him. Then use a series of swift, strong foot stomps to destroy his reproductive capability. If he has friends, knee them in the face while they're rising, and repeat the stomping.


I'm glad I'm not the only one who came to the realisation that by this point his dick would be completely and readily exposed for a swift crunching.

[krogothwolf]

I think you;re forgetting most people about to be raped probably aren't exactly thinking clearly and are freaked out for their lives. I mean, it's a scary ordeal and you may not be in a good mental capacity to realize what you can actually do to stop em. And usually you get beaten up to prevent you from fighting before the rape actually happens.

[BloodyMage]

I don't really understand why people came and stopped to watch it. If I came across a group of people watching someone get gangraped, I wouldn't stay to watch and wait for authority to come along. I'd walk away, get a distance away and ring the police, then I'd keep walking.

so yeah the rapists are messed up. The people who came along, saw it happening and stayed to watched are the really messed up ones.

[Dracorion]

I think you;re forgetting most people about to be raped probably aren't exactly thinking clearly and are freaked out for their lives. I mean, it's a scary ordeal and you may not be in a good mental capacity to realize what you can actually do to stop em. And usually you get beaten up to prevent you from fighting before the rape actually happens.

I think they're talking about what a person who came across an act of rape should do, not the person being raped.

[Bells]

understanding the limitations of text based communications, I can understand why you think my statements would be directed at you specifically, but they aren't. They're directed at people who try and pretend we're all powerless in the face of attrocity.

I guess you fall in to that category, but it's not a personal statement against you.

I really don't care if you fashion yourself as some sort of defeatist realist or whatever. To be honest I'm more personally insulted by Bells' comments, but I guess he's just assuming that I haven't been in life or death situations before, which is a safe assumption him not knowing my life. So basically I'm just angered by this news story and by the general apathy/denial I see from people in regards to it.

I actually waited before posting a reply yesterday because i thought that letting the subject "breath" a little would keeps things going ok around here, i'm sure you understand i was in no way trying to insult you. yeah, like you said i couldn't possible know of your background, and it does affect the way you would think about this.

Also, it's not like i don't agree with you. Because, really, i do. I just come into this with a different set of Variables that have nothing to do with me being a "coward" or whatever. I wasn't there, i don't know the odds, i don't know the situation... so i won't boast that i'll jump in there and break their faces.

There is just an overwhelming set of possibilities here. But i know that if i choose to get involved directly like that, i have to obligation to be perfect. Because if i'm not, i'm going against luck. And in THAT case i can harm myself and do no good. Or i can even make the situation for the other person worst.

Generating a second victim or Worsening the situation of the first are also outcomes i would not like to have upon me. So im not saying that i'll jump in there and help unless i can be sure that i can actually help. And just because kicking their asses is an great looking option that will feel great afterwards, that doesn't mean it's the best one. And in a situation like this you don't want to pick anything less than the best option. It's not just to preserve yourself, but the original victim too.

Sure, you can come and say that in the heat of the moment nobody will think critically like this and that people will just pick "Fight or Flee", but i talk like that because i would think critically like this. I was trained to do so. I'm a safety technician, and it might sound like nothing to you, but having that kind of training really does change your mindset. And in the same that i'm sure your military experience have changed yours somewhat.

To be completely honest, if we both were there and you wanted to jump in and kick their asses i would suggest otherwise at first. But if you went anyway i would follow suit. If only for the fact that 2 people jumping in just might be enough to scare most of these people away. If all the people in this thread were there and decided to rush in the crowd and stop that situation, i would be right there too... different odds, different situation. But i wouldn't go alone, because i right now i can't be sure that by doing that i could actually help her and keep myself alive. But i would feel more sure that if i called the police right away they just might get here and take these people away for good.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Immma tell you what the solution to gangrape ain't.

It ain't people going around in big groups looking to do violence against people they imagine have done wrong.

Just throwin' that out there.

Yeah, totally, but I think they more saying that it would be completely and totally justified in this case if someone were to do violent, violent harm unto another person in the pursuit of making that person stop raping someone.

[Mesden]

Wow, did I really just read a thread that contains attempts to justify gang rape spectating?

What the ever loving christ.

[NonCon]

Wow, did I really just read a thread with attempts to justify gang rape spectating?

No, you just read a thread with attempts to justify inaction as being a reasonable response, albeit not necessarily the right one. There is a difference.

[Mesden]

No, there isn't. That is playing semantics with a torturous atrocity.

[NonCon]

Yes. There is a difference between standing there and watching and not getting involved. And I am pretty certain nobody made arguments that not getting involved was the right response.

[Mr.Bookworm]

No, there isn't. That is playing semantics with a torturous atrocity.

It was completely and totally the wrong thing to do, but it's also basic human psychology. The greater the number of people in a crowd, the less likely a person is to try to help, as they'll think that someone else will surely help, except everyone else is thinking the exact same thing. So no one helps.

Not one of the feel-goodier parts of human psychology, but there you go.

[Mesden]

Yes. There is a difference between standing there and watching and not getting involved.

No, there isn't! Intentional ignorance of an act you can help to stop is no better than passive encouragement. There is absolutely no justification for turning a blind eye to any human being in that dire of need right before you. I'm not saying rush in gung ho and get yourself killed, but effective indifference to this is not some moral gray area -- it's unambiguously in the wrong. It may not be as bad as watching or committing in your mind, but your comfort isn't an issue when something this heinous happens.

It was completely and totally the wrong thing to do, but it's also basic human psychology. The greater the number of people in a crowd, the less likely a person is to try to help, as they'll think that someone else will surely help, except everyone else is thinking the exact same thing. So no one helps.

Not one of the feel-goodier parts of human psychology, but there you go.

Yes and basic human psychology also sometimes dictates it's okay to rape people but that does not mean it is okay, passable, excusable, or justifiable in any way. I understand that people do it, I don't understand that people in this thread defended the action.

[krogothwolf]

No, there isn't! Intentional ignorance of an act you can help to stop is no better than passive encouragement. There is absolutely no justification for turning a blind eye to any human being in that dire of need right before you. I'm not saying rush in gung ho and get yourself killed, but effective indifference to this is not some moral gray area -- it's unambiguously in the wrong. It may not be as bad as watching or committing in your mind, but your comfort isn't an issue when something this heinous happens.

What about those that are scared if they get involved they would end up getting hurt or killed? Some people are freaked that if they do something the person or persons that were committing the act wouldn't hesitant to kill them so they run away and hope someone stronger and braver stops it. It really is a legitimate fear because you don't have any idea what that type of person is fully capable of doing. Standing and watching is wrong and should be punished, but fleeing and not doing anything because you're scared shouldn't be.

Personally I would never be one to turn a blind eye, but I wouldn't hate someone or feel they were wrong who did because you don't really know why.

[Mesden]

Right, calling the police and asking to remain anonymous as soon as you turn the fucking corner is so likely to get yourself killed.

It's apologizing for rape apologists.

[MasterOfMagic]

What about those that are scared if they get involved they would end up getting hurt or killed? Some people are freaked that if they do something the person or persons that were committing the act wouldn't hesitant to kill them so they run away and hope someone stronger and braver stops it. It really is a legitimate fear because you don't have any idea what that type of person is fully capable of doing. Standing and watching is wrong and should be punished, but fleeing and not doing anything because you're scared shouldn't be.
This is what phones and 911 are for. There is a difference between running to get someone who can help because you don't think you can stop it yourself, and just running off and forgetting about it.

Everyone knows 911 by the time they're 15. Even if they didn't its a homecoming dance, so they could have ran for a teacher. There's just no excuse. Neither of these things would have put the person doing them in any kind of danger.

[krogothwolf]

Yet in their mind they could be going "They've seen my face, If I call the cops they might come after me because they know who I am now"

Fear makes you think and act in strange ways.

[Mesden]

I understand why it's done, I don't understand why people in this thread seem to be okay with it.

[Bells]

Hold on a second... seriously, who in this thread is Ok with letting people rape a girl in the street and do nothing about it...?

[Marc v1.0]

"Out of this Gathered crowd they know it was me because of their rapist mind-reading powers! There isn't any possible protection that could be afforded me as a witness or by virtue of only being one out of dozens of potential witnesses! I must stand here in shock and not make any sudden moves!"

That's a hard pill to swallow

[krogothwolf]

Yet it is a real fear. Why do you think people and witnesses don't always come forward? They are scared something bad will happen to them because of it.

I'm not okay with the raping of the girl and I'm not okay with those that stood around and watched. I'm just saying if someone saw it and left but didn't call because they are freaked out in their mind something bad will happen to them I wouldn't really hold it against them. You can say its a hard pill to follow but it is something real and something that happens a lot more often then we want to believe. They don't know what the guy is or they might know what he is capable of and that puts a fear in their hearts and minds and makes them unwilling to act on it at all.

[Fifthfiend]

So hey those people who actually committed the rape.

They sure are some pretty awful people.

I mean dang, what's wrong with those guys?

[Marc v1.0]

Yet it is a real fear. Why do you think people and witnesses don't always come forward? They are scared something bad will happen to them because of it.

I'm not okay with the raping of the girl and I'm not okay with those that stood around and watched. I'm just saying if someone saw it and left but didn't call because they are freaked out in their mind something bad will happen to them I wouldn't really hold it against them. You can say its a hard pill to follow but it is something real and something that happens a lot more often then we want to believe. They don't know what the guy is or they might know what he is capable of and that puts a fear in their hearts and minds and makes them unwilling to act on it at all.

It is a very, very, very illogical and irrational fear. Witnesses tend to be very few on many cases, and it really seems less to do with fear of the rapists, fuck they'll be IN JAIL, and more fear of social repurcussions from having STOOD THERE AND WATCHED IT HAPPEN.

Why do you think people and witnesses don't always come forward? They are scared something bad will happen to them because of it.

It's a very true fear...in primetime cop drama.

[krogothwolf]

It is a very, very, very illogical and irrational fear. Witnesses tend to be very few on many cases, and it really seems less to do with fear of the rapists, fuck they'll be IN JAIL, and more fear of social repurcussions from having STOOD THERE AND WATCHED IT HAPPEN.


Isn't almost every fear illogical and irrational? Fear of spiders, fear of clowns, fear of the outdoors, fear of open spaces, fear of moths. A fear doesn't have to be rational or logical.

I'm not saying those who stood and watched should be excused, but those who fled and did nothing I can understand why.

But since Fifth is trying to get us back on topic. Yes the gang raping people are horrid. I find Rape to be just as bad as murder in my books and think rapists should be locked away forever. I can't even fathom why someone would rape another person.

[CelesJessa]

Everything about this is absolutely horrifying.

I'm floored that it took someone who just overheard people reminiscing about what happened to call the police.

And we're not just talking people watching a rape, we're talking people watching rape so brutal it put the patient into critical condition when she was being flown out of there(and she only was confirmed stable a full 48 hours afterwords?). At what point over the two hours does it click that maybe something should be done?

And she was only 15 years old. What kind of sick fuck does something like that to a kid, let alone anyone?

I hope and pray that I never witness something like that, but I would at least hope that I would have the human decency to do something to help a 15 year old girl being attacked instead of just watching.

Just.... gah.

[NonCon]

I think rape is actually worse than murder.

[phil_]

I understand that people do it, I don't understand that people in this thread defended the action.There's a difference between explaining and defending. For example, historians try to explain how the Nazi party rose to power in Germany, citing the economic climate and the humiliated state in which the treaties ending WWI left the German people. Most historians aren't Nazi sympathizers. lol Godwin's law + semantics.

That wasn't a happy "lol," by the way. That was a sarcastic, "I already explicitly stated that I'm not pro-rape, what the heck is wrong with you, Mesden?" "lol."

[Bells]

So hey those people who actually committed the rape.

They sure are some pretty awful people.

I mean dang, what's wrong with those guys?

My guess? Not enough hugs.

This actually reminds me of that Halliburton deal where the female worker was gang raped by her co-workers and couldn't sue the company because there was a fine print in her work contract that prevented her of doing just that

[Mesden]

There's a difference between explaining and defending. For example, historians try to explain how the Nazi party rose to power in Germany, citing the economic climate and the humiliated state in which the treaties ending WWI left the German people. Most historians aren't Nazi sympathizers. lol Godwin's law + semantics.

That wasn't a happy "lol," by the way. That was a sarcastic, "I already explicitly stated that I'm not pro-rape, what the heck is wrong with you, Mesden?" "lol."

There were posts where people rationally put themselves in the situation and said that that was what they would do. This isn't saying people are pro rape, it's that people can somehow rationalize that their sense of humanity isn't enough to make a phone call in that situation, and don't blame those who would do the same. That is abhorrently wrong.

Also Fifth, it's getting personal I know, but jesus I just don't understand half the content in this thread.

[BloodyMage]

I think rape is actually worse than murder.

I agree. Someone who's dead doesn't have to live with being dead. Someone that's raped does have to live the the physical and psychological trauma of being raped.

[NonCon]

This isn't saying people are pro rape, it's that people can somehow rationalize that their sense of humanity isn't enough to make a phone call in that situation, and don't blame those who would do the same.

I don't think anyone said they would justify a phone call not being made until people on the other side of the argument were already saying that was what they were saying. What most people seemed to be justifying at first was the whole "Not running up and beating the shit out of people" thing. I myself would not run up and beat the shit out of people for a myriad of reasons. Once people started assuming that that somehow meant wouldn't even call the police or whatever was when people started to defend that, which I think comes down to some weird form of psychology about people's minds when arguing/debating. I don't agree with not calling the police and I do agree that not calling is objectively the wrong decision to make. The only explanation I can come up with for otherwise decent people not calling the police is that they assume the police have been called by someone else already. It's a shirking of responsibility.

[Mesden]

Please read like all of my posts where I say I understand the mentality behind it but don't understand the self insertion and acceptance of it.

PS: I am the most anti rape person ever of all time and even I won't go so far as to say Rape is worse than murder. Damaging a life is not even in the same ballpark of destroying one.

[NonCon]

I am the most anti rape person ever of all time and even I won't go so far as to say Rape is worse than murder.

Then obviously you aren't.

[Mesden]

Aha, okay, that's enough of this thread.

[BloodyMage]

I'd say it probably depends on your view of the afterlife, but we're not going to go there. Mostly because it's completely off topic.

So yeah, those rapists. Bad people.

[Fifthfiend]

Aha, okay, that's enough of this thread.

Gon' agree.