Frustrations about film plot holes, WARNING: spoilers galore. [Archive]

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Telephalsion

01-07-2009, 08:27 PM

Perhaps we need a "Rant your frustrations about film plot holes" thread?
Go for it.

Sorry for stealing it from you Corel.

Anyways, I personally have a slight grudge against most characters who unlock their powers. I mean sure, I'm all for the hero being powerful, but just getting there by realizing he hates his parents? That's just wrong. I prefer montages.

In the movie "wanted" this happens when suddenly the protagonist kills everyone, including his father, who was the most powerful ever, and all the people that taught him everything he knew. Sure, pupil becomes the teacher, but that's just sad. Nobody would believe it if Karate Kid beat up Mr Miyagi without a 15 minute montage.

There are of course movies where power-unlocking doesn't seem forced and actually fits in pretty well, and might even be an integral part of the whole movie, like in The Matrix, where it wouldn't have been much fun if Neo didn't go all The One at the end.

EDIT: Thanks Mike.

Mike McC

01-07-2009, 08:42 PM

Since there is no way to tell WHAT movies are going to be spoiled from that thread title, spoiler tags should probably still be used. Sage nod.

Because saying spoilers only counts if you also say what's being spoiled, y'know?

On the whole War of the Worlds thing that kicked this off: If you're invading a planet, you probably need something. Resources of some sort. This may in fact override the inherent danger of a toxic environment in order to collect this needed resource. I think this is a reasonable explination for the 'invading a toxic planet' plot hole.. Please note I'm basing this off earlier versions, as I have not seen the newest version.

Smarty McBarrelpants

01-07-2009, 08:53 PM

An oldie: CasablancaWhy would a pass signed by Charles Freaking De Gaulle allow you to get through Nazi territories? Surely it would just get you shot on sight.....

Corel

01-07-2009, 09:14 PM

BitVyper

01-07-2009, 09:35 PM

It's okay Telephlasion; I was considering of making such a thread when I promptly fell asleep.

Here are some plot holes! (http://www.cracked.com/article_16625_8-classic-movies-that-got-away-with-gaping-plot-holes.html)

Also in the last The Lord of the Rings film where Frodo and Sam are being carried back home I sat there thinking "Why didn't they just do that in the first place to get there?". Okay, so there are winged bat things swooping around but surely a Wizard could have helped with that!

Or they should have done this. (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=-EWfllJ6kNw&feature=related)

I refuse to spoiler anything from a novel that came out decades ago.

Because the entire reason the plan worked was Frodo and Sam being able to slip under Sauron's radar. Trying to dump the ring in from the eagles backs would have been like sending a lone biplane into the USA to assassinate the President. Only harder because you're carrying an incredibly powerful sentient item that only needs to successfully manipulate the mind of one person to completely fuck your plan over. Note that even Gandalf didn't think he could handle the temptation of being asked to bear the ring at all.

Also, I didn't check your link, but I'm sure that's the howitshouldhaveended video. The number of reasons that plan wouldn't have worked is mindboggling. Don't get me wrong; it's still hilarious, but not workable at all.

Edit: You have to understand how completely fucked Middle Earth was at the time. They were busy dealing with two overwhelmingly powerful threats, and the "good guys" weren't anywhere near having a unified front until pretty much the very very last battle where they were doing almost exactly what you are suggesting; distracting Sauron so that Frodo and Sam would have a chance. The guys who actually knew what needed to be done had no real sway over anyone until very late in the game, and they only just managed to get their shit together in time to stop Sauron's army from stampeding over Middle Earth.

MFD

01-07-2009, 09:51 PM

No, no, it's not that cartoon. It's an even better idea.

BitVyper

01-07-2009, 10:03 PM

Oh, that one. Well that one is just such a great idea that no one would have thought it up.

Actually, Boromir would have, which is why he had to be written out of the plot, and replaced by his far less competent brother.

Archbio

01-07-2009, 10:09 PM

Note that even Gandalf didn't think he could handle the temptation of being asked to bear the ring at all.

Gandalf would have thought the same of the Eagles, also.

BitVyper

01-07-2009, 10:15 PM

Gandalf would have thought the same of the Eagles, also.

Yup. I'm assuming that's why the eagle in the HISHE version is blindfolded, but sight has never been a requirement for the ring to work on someone.

Edit: Now if Boromir had survived, he would have just singlehandedly wiped out Mordor's army, because he's not a pansy-ass coward like his brother, Faramir, or as I like to call him "Failure."

Archbio

01-07-2009, 10:21 PM

HISHE?

But really the eagles are described as being prideful to excess, so yeah.

BitVyper

01-07-2009, 10:36 PM

HISHE?

How It Should Have Ended.

But really the eagles are described as being prideful to excess, so yeah.

Well the really sinister thing about the ring is that having any desire to do anything at all is pretty much a weakness it can exploit. So you're a selfless hero, willing to give of yourself to save the people? Well great, hey I bet that ring could probably help you heal the sick or something, and you can probably control it long enough to do SOME good with it at least, as long as you're careful... right? Well anyway, even if it does eventually corrupt you and you have to be put down, what's your life in comparison to all the good you can do with it? As long as Sauron doesn't get it, you probably wouldn't turn out that bad anyway. I mean, all it did to Smeagol was make him Gollum. Yeah, using the ring is sounding like a much better idea than going on a suicide mission to get rid of it. Well lets just put it on for a test run. One time can't possibly do that much harm...

Strong enough to actually wrest control of the Ring away from Sauron? Hello Galadriel.

I think part of the reason Tom Bombadil would have been immune to it is because he just doesn't care about shit. He's too whimsical.

Mac

01-08-2009, 12:37 PM

My name is Mac AND I totally support Bit on LOTR.

Yeah I myself had to defend why they didn't just use the eagles in the first place.

One plot hole that has been bothering me for sometime is the end of Episode 3. While yes The entire prequel saga was a mess, the fact the showed the Death Star from what we can tell is only days after Vader's transformation, why did it take them 17 years to get it fully operational when it onbly took 4 years between a New Hope and Return of the Jedi

Fifthfiend

01-08-2009, 12:44 PM

My name is MC AND I totally support Bit on LOTR.

Yeah I myself had to defend why they didn't just use the eagles in the first place.

One plot hole that has been bothering me for sometime is the end of Episode 3. While yes The entire prequel saga was a mess, the fact the showed the Death Star from what we can tell is only days after Vader's transformation, why did it take them 17 years to get it fully operational when it onbly took 4 years between a New Hope and Return of the Jedi

At least in part because when they built the second death star they had the benefit of a workforce which had a pretty good idea of how you go about building a death star, due to having already built a death star.

17 years of having already worked out all of the twenty trillion bugs and kinks and holdups and breakdowns there would have been in the original design and construction process means you can get the replacement up to speed in a whole lot less of the time.

Hawk

01-08-2009, 12:44 PM

The Matrix Reloaded and Revolutions.

Need I say more?

EDIT; At least in part because when they built the second death star they had the benefit of a workforce which had a pretty good idea of how you go about building a death star, due to having already built a death star.

First rule of governament spending; why build one when you can build 2 for twice the price? Maybe they'd already begun building the second before they'd even completed the first and it was just a few years behind construction.

Fifthfiend

01-08-2009, 12:46 PM

The Matrix Reloaded and Revolutions.

Need I say more?

It'd be a good idea, yeah.

...one thing that always bugged me was in the first one Morpheus was shown as this totally famous guy who was like the top priority for the entire Matrix security establishment. And then we get to the next two movies and he's just some jerk with this tiny-ass crew that nobody else in Zion gives a fuck about.

RickZarber

01-08-2009, 02:50 PM

Lumenskir

01-08-2009, 03:20 PM

...one thing that always bugged me was in the first one Morpheus was shown as this totally famous guy who was like the top priority for the entire Matrix security establishment. And then we get to the next two movies and he's just some jerk with this tiny-ass crew that nobody else in Zion gives a fuck about.
I thought it was like a "If you have your own ship, you're part of the group of people who knows the codes" dealie, not a "He's a special case" dealie.

Something that bugs me more in TV then films (but prevalent in both) is the excessively obvious Chekhov's Gun syndrome, where we learn some unimportant fact for no reason at the beginning and then watch it come back to save the day. The only recent example that does it well was Kung Fu Panda where it was sort of presented as a one-off joke at the beginning buried in a bunch of similar jokes until it made sense at the end and the audience gets to actually feel like they're remembering it alongside the protagonist.

Of course, Kung Fu Panda did fall into the "Show a ridiculously skilled villain who loses his shit when faced with the protagonist" pitfall.

Kaneda

01-08-2009, 03:26 PM

BitVyper

01-08-2009, 04:30 PM

Am I the only one who remembers that Morpheus was pretty much a celebrity in Zion? I mean, I know we all hated the rave scene and his speech, but it did still happen.

Anyway, I think it has something to do with Morpheus pursuing things that not every human believes in, but that the machines know are very real. I also think it might be partly Morpheus' own doing; leaving lots of information about himself laying around so that potential "recruits" could search for him.

Smarty McBarrelpants

01-08-2009, 04:53 PM

I think part of the reason Tom Bombadil would have been immune to it is because he just doesn't care about shit. He's too whimsical.

The ring would have exploited his rabid desire to continually sing bullshit songs.

Mirai Gen

01-08-2009, 05:54 PM

My biggest problem with The Matrix sequels is that Neo really didn't 'do' anything. He made a deal with the machines so that they'd stop trying to kill free humans, but okay, what the hell does that do? The war is over, yes, but the Matrix still exists, machines still thrive power off of them, and it's going to keep being that way. Wouldn't the remaining humans in the Matrix want to escape? Wouldn't the free humans want to break them out? And wouldn't the machines want to stop that?

I mean sure Colonel Sanders might have been satisfied that he really can't control individuality and therefore gave up but come on, it was a huge letdown to have Neo save them all by ending everything exactly as it all started. Wasn't his prophecy supposed to herald the end of the Matrix?

I think part of the reason Tom Bombadil would have been immune to it is because he just doesn't care about shit. He's too whimsical.
It'll happen in the Hobbit 2: Electric Bombadil.

Sorry I've had that one saved up for a while now.

Kroze Gamegod

01-08-2009, 07:49 PM

My biggest problem with The Matrix sequels is that Neo really didn't 'do' anything. He made a deal with the machines so that they'd stop trying to kill free humans, but okay, what the hell does that do? The war is over, yes, but the Matrix still exists, machines still thrive power off of them, and it's going to keep being that way. Wouldn't the remaining humans in the Matrix want to escape? Wouldn't the free humans want to break them out? And wouldn't the machines want to stop that?

I mean sure Colonel Sanders might have been satisfied that he really can't control individuality and therefore gave up but come on, it was a huge letdown to have Neo save them all by ending everything exactly as it all started. Wasn't his prophecy supposed to herald the end of the Matrix?

What you might have missed is both sides agreed that they both needed to coexist and the machines gave every human in the Matrix a choice right after Neo died.... go out there to that horrible and scorched world to live in Zion and help rebuild everything or stay inside the nice and cozy Matrix and keep living out their already established life while helping the machines live.
That was the whole thing about choice at the end.

And the story is later continued in Matrix Online which is written by the brothers and is actually really damn good.
Makes me wish they played that out more of a TV show than in a MMORPG.

Mirai Gen

01-08-2009, 08:01 PM

What you might have missed is both sides agreed that they both needed to coexist and the machines gave every human in the Matrix a choice right after Neo died.... go out there to that horrible and scorched world to live in Zion and help rebuild everything or stay inside the nice and cozy Matrix and keep living out their already established life while helping the machines live.
I didn't miss it because they didn't tell me.

I mean that's a pretty big problem if the explanation of the resolution isn't in your movie. Makes me wish Matrix Online didn't suck, I would have liked to have seen more.

In fact I think that if the movies didn't suck it would have been interesting because they would have kept adding to the universe which could be totally interesting.

BitVyper

01-08-2009, 09:45 PM

That's always more or less what I assumed would happen anyway.

EVILNess

01-08-2009, 11:11 PM

My biggest beef with movies isn't really about plotholes so much as it is with the way scary movies are ending.

If a hero just spent 2 hours fighting insanity and monsters that come out of mirrors then he should end the movie happy and with his family/love interest, not trapped in some mirror hell dimension with demons nipping at his feet.

Unhappy endings really bug me for some reason.

Kaneda

01-08-2009, 11:43 PM

I didn't miss it because they didn't tell me.

I mean that's a pretty big problem if the explanation of the resolution isn't in your movie.

Are you sure? I'm not positive either, but I've always been under the impression that that's what happened, and I've had no exposure to the expanded universe type stuff.

Invisible Queen

01-09-2009, 12:17 AM

The Matrix probably has plot holes coming out of its nose holes, but we don't know since everything's kept so vague. Where are the children? Where is everything that isn't the big city? I mean Morpheus wouldn't ever have found the One if he'd been one of the five billion or so people who don't have Internet access. They can't even beam in anywhere that doesn't have a phone and don't seem to think that such places exist. And why can't the machines disconnect hackers on sight? Oh wait, the twist, the One is supposed to make it through to the Architect, but then why do they try to kill him? It's some pretty crappy world building, for a franchiese trying to cover more than one movie.

Oh, and who helps Cypher into the Matrix for a secret meeting with the Agents? And why doesn't the ship have guns in the first movie? And most of all, where did Morpheus come up with not one or two but three people with such low egos they consider themselves supporting characters in their lives to such a degree they'd choose Internet names like Mouse and Switch?

Kaneda

01-09-2009, 12:23 AM

Oh, and who helps Cypher into the Matrix for a secret meeting with the Agents?

I think Neo walks in on Cypher programming something that would help him jack into the matrix on his own. Or something.

That would raise whole new plot holes, but yah.

Mirai Gen

01-09-2009, 12:28 AM

Some of those questions I was willing to ignore for the purpose of letting the story unfold itself, since Cypher was a great villain. But yeah, Matrix is rife with plot holes, most of them can be explained either by "a One did it" or SCI FI POWER, but the ending of Revolutions bugged me.

Well the whole movie was stupid but the ending especially.

Archbio

01-09-2009, 12:39 AM

Where is everything that isn't the big city? I mean Morpheus wouldn't ever have found the One if he'd been one of the five billion or so people who don't have Internet access. They can't even beam in anywhere that doesn't have a phone and don't seem to think that such places exist.

I don't think those are plot holes. It's not made explicit, but I think that's literally what's implied to be true. The technologies inside and outside the matrix are meshed together, that's shown. The security programs operate through the guise of omniscient government agents. I think that was all intentional.

And why can't the machines disconnect hackers on sight?

That one's troublesome, but I feel it's explained well by a combination of the distinction between the programs and the machines, and the perceived threat of the hackers not being such a worry for the machines. Which is made stronger and stronger until the plot breaks apart in the end of the second movie.

Is The One and Scion countermeasures or not? But that's not a plot hole. That's a plot continental rift. it's like they couldn't be bothered to resolve the plot.