The NPF MUD Project

[Hatake Kakashi]

Hey guys.

I was tryin to get some sleep (but decidedly NOT tired) and a thought occurred. We're a bunch of internet geeks. I mean REAL internet geeks. Yet, to my knowledge, we really haven't had anything but the forum and webcomics to share between us all.

Then I realized there HAS to be some very talented coders and such among our diverse membership. Probably some people with good builder's potential too. Why haven't we made a NPF mud yet?

I'd like to begin crafting a MUD project for this forum. But I can't do it alone. I can run a mud, but I know very little, if anything, about coding in C or C+. I can build using an established codebase, so areas and mobiles are little issue with me. But I want a good list of people who'd be interested in putting a mud together. We can have separated PvP, quests, clans/guilds/syndicates, and of course, our usual good time chatting amongst ourselves about whatever happens to come across our twisted little minds.

Are any of you interested? Please tell me you know what a MUD is... please post your replies in this thread and we'll work up a dialogue with suggestions and strategies to make a really kickass place for all of us to hang out!

Things I would like to know:

1) What classes would you like to see in this mud? I have some ideas, but what are yours, and how would they work?

2) What races would you like to see in this mud? Will everyone be human, or will there be elves, dwarves, dragons, vulcans, etc?

3) What quests would you like to do? I have the typical (find this somewhere where I have hidden it and return it to me for goodies) quests, a few PvP quests, and all sorts of other fun stuff, but I need more, or I'll be forced to run my favorite quest: MUD geeks should be familiar with how it works. "Get the immy to less than perfect condition and get a huge prize! *immy msets self maxhp 1*" (I can't count how many times I ran that one before....)

4) What kind of areas and themes would you like to play in? Modern day? Future post-apocalyptic? Fantasy ADnD? Stone Age? Multiple times/themes?

5) And would you care to contribute to the project? If so, how would you help?

I really think we can make something awesome from this with a bit of work. I currently have my hands on a very modified SMAUG codebase of a MUD I dominated about 2 years back, but if someone knows DIKU better, we can run with it too, if you can find a serviceable base. Hosting is also up for discussion, though if need be, I might have an option or two.

[CrazyBen]

This sounds pretty sweet, and I wish like heck I could help make it. Unfortunately, I'm still only learning to program, so can't give any more than ideas and moral support.

Personally, I've always been a fan of sci-fi settings, or maybe something with zombies.

[Azisien]

I could build for you if you had OLC. I'm well aware of how horribly tedious it is to build a MUD. Sounds cool, anyway.

[Lockeownzj00]

We have other options--using an existing game and setting up a private server, and developing it from there...or using a MUD-jumpstarting tool like BYOND.

If anyone is actually willing to do this, though, I'll definitely be on board to do whatever I can.

I think, however, there might be a slight aversion to text-only MUDs among us. I don't mind, but I simply prefer the aesthetics of visuals, otherwise I feel like I'm in just a glorified chatroom.

[Azisien]

That's probably the other problem. Heck, NWN would be a way better platform if people actually had NWN. :P And I have the half decade experience in that game, so...

[Major Blood]

I would suggest for a Codebase you use ROM 2.4. Its really easy to code and build with it. And i'm not saying that just because i can build really well in ROM(or ROT, they're basically the same thing). Though i can't imagine that Diku is much different seeing as how ROM/ROT are deriatives of that codebase. Yeah, i would suggest either ROM (http://www.mudmagic.com/codes/download/diku/merc/rom) or ROT (http://www.mudmagic.com/codes/download/diku/merc/rom/rot) for codebases.

So if you really do start a NPF mud i would totally be down for building. I have lots of experience in that area.

[Azisien]

After months of gruesome travel, I have tracked down the hidden refuge of the Moderators. The horrors they speak of in the land of the invisible mode are nigh unspeakable, and I dare not repeat them here. Very quickly my legs gave out, and there I sat stealthed by a rocky outcropping, listening to their ultimate plans...

My friends, we are surely doomed!

Signed,
Azisien.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a128/Azisien/ModeratorDungeon.jpg

[Hatake Kakashi]

Cool, cool. Looks like we have some aspiring builders. The SWR/SMAUG codebase I have does have OLC, as well as a lot of well-designed progs. I will be removing one in particular that I dislike heavily, which is a stat-maintenance system, in which you have to spend hours of tedious exercizing just to MAINTAIN your stats, let alone improve them... or else, they will rot. Bleh. That was one of the dumbest things I think they ever imped.

I'll need several positions in an imm staff filled, and please, only go for it if you have the time to spare. Hiring new imms is a chore.

Coder
Co-Admins
Head Enforcer
Head Builder
Enforcers
Builders
RP Admin
Misc.

And if any of you have a codebase you're more comfortable coding with, and have a copy of it, please let me know. I want this project to be the easiest possible on all of us, but make no mistake... putting a quality mud together takes a LOT of work. But yes, I'm quite serious about this, so if you're up for it, let's keep the dialogue moving.

EDIT: I gotta run to work now, but Locke, talk to us more about this BYOND thing. My interest is piqued. Have you used it before?

[Mac]

While this sounds like an awesome idea, I have very limited skills with using c+ and that stuff. I usually have ideas. I mostly think of creatures and what not.

[dojindog]

I think making a MUD would be a great idea!

Wait... what's a MUD?

[Krylo]

Obviously the only codebase that could possibly encompass the pure god-modding and PKing of the people around here would be the original Godwars. You know, the one with mages and highlander magic immunity? The one that only had Vampires, Demons, Mages, and Highlanders? None of this crazy Drow shit. Or those stupid gems... and the goddamn upgrade classes. I hate those. Turned the game from a careful balance of strategy and character power into a game of purely character power. [/rant]

Anyway, no matter what goes on I'll probably sign-up. I love mudding.

Depending on the MUD and how addicted I become, I might sign up for something along the lines of RP admin or Enforcer.

I can't promise I'll have the time for it until I know what it's like, though. I'm a fickle beast.

[POS Industries]

MUD: Multi-User Dungeon. The precurser to the MMORPG. That's "Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game", just so you know. Before World of Warcraft, Everquest, Final Fantasy XI, Ultima Online, etc. there were these things. They can be pretty fun with the right people playing them.

Best part? No chinese gold farmers!

EDIT: I'm with Krylo on the Godwars idea. It's the only way to go if we're making a NPF-based game.

[DarkCORN!]

This sounds awesome, I can do anything that no one else wants to do. I have elementary progamming skills, good sprite skills, and access to high powered computers (Dad works in graphic design). Wait, will this use sprites or drawings or what?

[Chipper173]

What would being an enforcer entrail? I have absolutely no coding experience but want to be involved.

[phil_]

From Wikipedia

A MUD (Multi-User Dungeon or Domain or Dimension) is a multi-player computer game that combines elements of role-playing games, hack and slash style computer games and social instant messaging chat rooms.Link here, so you can read more (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUD)

For my part, I would be of no use in this project, but I would play it if it got started. I'm also not opposed to a NPF NWN module, though I don't think I could participate, as I live in the land of 56k.

EDIT: Chesus Christ, I got ninja'd by four people! And, no, DarkCORN, no sprites or graphics are involved.

[DarkCORN!]

Bah, text-based? No thanks.

[dojindog]

So basically we have a wonderful idea, but we are without the means to put it into function... damn we ARE the American public :p

I'm without any cash whatsoever and no coding experience whatsoever but I have a deep hatred of Chinese Gold Farmers, and seek to better the online gaming community... so count me in as long as it is not text-based (don't get me started on that):sweatdrop

[GARUD]

Ok, I'm interested and willing to lend my skills. I can help program, contribute to design, give concepts etc.

Question. Would THIS (http://www.ffhybrid.net/forum/) (the RPG section) be an MUD?

Also, what code will be using for it? I can learn the syntax if need be, if the program is free for me to use. I don't have any money to spend either.

But seriously. This forum would look kickass with an MUD game to tide me over while waiting for someone to post in an RP.

[phil_]

No, GARUD, that isn't a MUD. MUDs are more like a chat room with programed rules and persistance. The only one I've ever considered is RetroMUD (http://www.retromud.org/), as it was advertised on KeenSpace. I'm a tool of the system. But that should give you an idea (or you could've read the Wikipedia article).

[GARUD]

No, GARUD, that isn't a MUD. MUDs are more like a chat room with programed rules and persistance. The only one I've ever considered is RetroMUD (http://www.retromud.org/), as it was advertised on KeenSpace. I'm a tool of the system. But that should give you an idea (or you could've read the Wikipedia article).

I did read the article and I didn't understand it. Thanks for clearing it up.

Still willing to help.

[Lockeownzj00]

EDIT: I gotta run to work now, but Locke, talk to us more about this BYOND thing. My interest is piqued. Have you used it before?

There are various games built on BYOND, almost all for multiplayer (might actually be all, but I'm not sure). While a lot are of really shoddy quality, I have seen a few stellar examples of what is possible with the BYOND codebase (or whatever the fuck it is).

What I started on was FF4 online. It had lag issues (not from server stress but from memory load, I believe), but it was damn fun. A complete implementation of FF4 in multiplayer format, with parties, classes, everything. Identical world map. It felt beautiful. I played through many player wipes, and I still get nostalgic every once in a while.

There were other popular MMORPGs, some of which I dabbled in. I was kind of afraid to leave my safe FFLegacy (the name of said game) box, so I rarely tried other games, but I know there were Dragon Quest games and even Harvest Moon MMOs (although I never saw one implemented well...I do remember one non-BYOND HM MMO in the works, but I don't know where that went).

There were some other non-RPG games that I played that were quite fun. There was an upgraded version of Mafia that you could play, with some extra classes that was quite fun. There were also some TBSes in there somewhere.

One thing I was privy to was a beta-FF6 MMO. I don't know how that's moving along, but a guy in this alternate FF4 game (long story--admin quarrels leading to separate versions of the game) invited a bunch of people to check it out, and it was pretty damn sweet. Figaro castle, perfect implementation save for a few non-solid tiles and broken animations. The guys really knew what they were doing. I wonder if that's progressed at all.

Anyway, I'm still baffled by the BYOND community. I can't figure out where it comes from or how it gets its userbase. It just seems so...random. I've always marvelled over it. If you want though, check it out (I believe it's byond.net), the code it uses can apparently be really powerful.

Background notes: The games operate in a window in the upper left. The lower left is usually a bunch of tabs with verbs (commands) for the game, and on the left, you have your chat area and whatever else you may have open (your pager, your HUB...think of it like AOL; it's all centered around one client).

[PyrosNine]

Hmm...if you were to make a mud, I think it'd have to be flexible in the character creation department. I mean, we're all a bunch of eccentric nerds who have our own obscure Forum personae.

Instead of having races, how about classes? Like spellcaster, swordsman, chaos mage, Dragoon, Mercenary, Mahou Shoujo, MOD. Y'know, to fit the fact it's a forum, yet still have a fantasy setting about it.

[Hatake Kakashi]

Hmm...if you were to make a mud, I think it'd have to be flexible in the character creation department. I mean, we're all a bunch of eccentric nerds who have our own obscure Forum personae.

Instead of having races, how about classes? Like spellcaster, swordsman, chaos mage, Dragoon, Mercenary, Mahou Shoujo, MOD. Y'know, to fit the fact it's a forum, yet still have a fantasy setting about it.

Actually, I wanted to have both races AND classes. Why, for example, be a human samurai, when you can be a dragon or faerie samurai? Why not be a giant paladin instead of a dwarf paladin? Etc etc etc.

I was planning to make this an incredibly flexible system, with perhaps several hundred or even thousand character combinations once you've put the time in to customize your character to it's limit. As the mud I cut my mudding teeth on way, way back in the day is beyond resurrection, I am currently petitioning to borrow snippets of their codebase for the game. This includes multiple races, each with their own strengths and vulnerabilities, classes, and character kits. The more I thought on it today, the more inclined I am to lean toward the DIKU system. Smaug/SWR is great for ease of use, but everyone tends to acquire fairly uniform characters when all is said and done.

I have the following races under consideration, with possible max stats listed (out of 25, unaltered by magic or gear) along with particular use or vulnerability. I'll include descriptions of the first few, with more on the way.

Human: [Str] 18 [Int] 18 [Con] 18 [Wis] 18 [Dex] 18 Size: M
Humans are the most commonly populous race in most rpg settings. They are short-lived, but talented, and can acquire proficiency in most areas of skill. They have no particular areas in which they excel, but no glaring weaknesses, either.

Dragon: [Str] 25 [Int] 25 [Con] 25 [Wis] 25 [Dex] 25 Size: H
Dragons. Y'know, the big, scaley things that find all races equally palatable with the right seasonings and the proper amount of breath-weapon cooking time. Dragons are among the mightiest of beings in creation, and there are few things they cannot achieve. Masters of their domain, there are few who can challenge their power. Dragons have a resistance to magic, and to bludgeoning attacks, and can often turn away would-be lethal blows with their protective scales. However, their power also comes with a price, as they have a vulnerability to piercing attacks, and an extreme vulnerability to the cold.

Elves: [Str] 18 [Int] 19 [Con] 16 [Wis] 18 [Dex] 19 Size: M
Elves are the guardians of lore, the mystical songstresses often told of in fairy tales, the dashing heroes with the flying blades who show up in the nick of time to defeat the ruffians and saving the townsfolk, the mysterious rogues and enchanters whose abilities remain forever bound in secrecy. Elves are quite similar to their human neighbors, being slightly more intelligent and lithe, but slightly less able to take a punch. They make fair fighters, but excellent thieves and spellcasters. Due to their magical natures, they receive a resistance to sleep and charm spells, but a slight vulnerability to weapons crafted of iron.

Faeries: [Str] 6 [Int] 25 [Con] 12 [Wis] 25 [Dex] 25 Size: T
Faeries are mysterious, light-hearted folk who enjoy nothing so much as crafting their magical abilities for the amusement of themselves and their friends, and darting through the wilderness, defending that which they hold dear. Physically weak, they make incredibly poor fighters, and though dexterous, few become theives, as they often cannot escape with the loot they pilfer. However, their magical natures along with their exceptional intelligence and wise dispositions make them unrivalled among spellcasters, granting them additional casting levels over what would ordinarily be available. Faeries excel as Clerics, Monks, Druids, Mages, Wizards, Crusaders, and Elementalists. With their diminutive stature and their incredible dexterity, they make a difficult target to hit. Faeries have a typically low pool of health available to them, however, and have an incredibly low tolerance to blunt attacks.

Dwarf: [Str] 22 [Int] 19 [Con] 24 [Wis] 17 [Dex] 17 Size: S
Resistances: Poison, Plague

Giant: [Str] 25 [Int] 16 [Con] 25 [Wis] 17 [Dex] 16 Size: H
Resistances: Blunt, Cold

Volare: [Str] 18 [Int] 19 [Con] 18 [Wis] 20 [Dex] 18 Size: M
Resistances: Light, Curse
Vulnerability: Dark

Lasher: [Str] 19 [Int] 18 [Con] 20 [Wis] 18 [Dex] 18 Size: L
Resistances: Dark, Fire
Vulnerability: Light

Kender: [Str] 14 [Int] 17 [Con] 16 [Wis] 15 [Dex] 25 Size: S
Resistances: Sleep, Charm, Curse
Vulnerability: Poison, Plague, Cold

Rockbiter: [Str] 25 [Int] 15 [Con] 25 [Wis] 25 [Dex] 13 Size: H
Resistances: Physical
Vulnerability: Mental

Yinn: [Str] 22 [Int] 19 [Con] 22 [Wis] 18 [Dex] 19 Size: L
Vulnerability: Fire

Each race will have it's own particular things they're good at, and many will recieve skills or abilities unique only to their race. For example, dwarves will have an ability to sharpen weapons, and will be exceptional at breaking their opponent's shields, whilst Yinns will have an ability that will, after use of a combat mantra, enhance their physical combat prowess for a period of time. And so on and so forth.

Meanwhile, I have ideas for several types of classes and class hybrids. I do want input as to whether all classes should be available from creation, or if some should be reserved to be earned in a reclass-style creation. There are 5 Basic Classes:

Fighter - Good at Fighting. Not much else.
Mage- Casts spells, often will get the crap beat out of him in a toe-to-toe brawl.
Cleric- Heals a lot, fights a little. Can hold own in melee, but abilities shine with help of a deity.
Thief- Jack of all trades, master of none. Good at that which requires stealth.
Elementalist- Magelike spellcaster specializing in use of elements for power.

And then several hybrid classes:

Blademaster - Fighter/Fighter dual-class. Has enhanced fighting ability, as well as the ability to catch disarmed weapons and dual-wielding.
Wizard - Mage/Mage dual-class. Gains additional casting levels, as well as a few enhanced spells. Tends to use less power in attack spells, and more power in benedictions/maladictions and status-affecting spells.
Crusader - Cleric/Cleric dual-class. Gains addtional favor from deity, and has access to many powerful divine spells.
Rogue - Thief/Thief dual-class. Best stealth ability of all classes, strongest backstab ability, and only class with coveted Slice and cutpurse abilities.
Paladin - Fighter/Cleric dual class. Gains the ability to use holy weapons, has access to many divine spells.
Samurai - Fighter/Mage dual class. Has high proficiency in magic, gains "throw" ability (among the best stun skills in the game).
Berserker - Fighter/Thief dual class. Gains resistances to magic, and possesses insanity attack. Gains maximum benefits of berserk skill.
Druid - Mage/Cleric dual class. Has access to most spells in the game, and highest casting levels. Gains access to Orbs spellgroup.
Assassin - Mage/Thief dual class. Possesses good proficiency in magic, gains access to trap skill, hamstring skill, garrotte skill, and ability to use vorpal weapons.
Monk - Cleric/Thief dual class. Best defensive skills in the game, good faith magic proficiencies. Gains access to kailindo martial art.

Naturally, your primary class would affect how your dual class behaves. For example, an assassin with a thief primary class would rely heavily upon his stealth and other unique skills moreso than his magical talents, whereas one with a mage primary class would be more apt to use spells to mask his presence, lull his opponent into a compromising position, and only use his physical skills as a last resort. A Fighter-based Paladin would be more likely to show his fearsome prowess with his holy weapon in combat, whereas a cleric-based Paladin would prefer and be more apt to use the powers granted by communing with his deity to subdue his enemies. And so on and so forth....

To top it off, eventually I plan to include various kits which players may spend training sessions on to acquire even more skills or spells, making them even more distinct and distinguished in what they do. (You may only take 1 kit. If you choose to take another, you may, but you lose any skills or spells or abilities from the previous kit, and lose the training sessions spent to acquire it as well. Choose wisely.) An enchanter kit, available to mages and wizards, would grant the user the ability to enchant weapons and armors to a higher degree and quality than a normal spellcaster would. A necromancer kit would grant that same wizard vast command over legions of undead. A Dragonslayer kit (available to all races and classes except, of course, dragons) would grant the user an immense hatred toward all things scaly, and give them an enhanced ability to deal damage to the wyrms, as well as resistances to their breath weapons. A ninja kit would grant a thief, assassin, or rogue unparallelled stealth ability, as well as a martial art designed to strike certain points in an opponent's body, inflicting massive damage. And so on, and so forth.

It sounds very complicated, and to a degree, it will be, but will also create an immense capacity for diversity among our playerbase, as well as a balance of sorts in regards to what classes will fall prey to what.

Your thoughts?

[Krylo]

Firstly: Where's the undead?

Also, I've never liked normal mythology's view on faeries. The Sidhe (pronounced shee) are far more interesting. Mostly in that they aren't immediately useless in all context--particularily in a MUD where ranged attacks offer little in the way of advantage. What good is being able to hurl fireballs when you have to do it within range of somene's sword? Especially when you lack the physical fortitude to fight. When using the 'classical' faerie, the elf generally ends up being a much better spell caster--even though they make lack the magical oomph, they have FAR greater survivability, being able to both survive a blow and fall back on a dagger if necessary when magic reserves run low.

Also, I've never been a fan of class systems, and re-class systems are even worse, as it requires you to work your ass off just to have your skills fucked up so you can start over with the class you really wanted or just requires you to get to level five times instead of just once. A class system tends to lock you into a very specific path of character growth, and retards character diversity.

I've played about a million muds, and the classless ones are almost always better when it comes to such things. Even with your current idea how is one wizard with a necromancer kit going to differ from the next? You have a total of fifteen classes outlined there, and let's face it, races are mostly cosmetic in claims of diversity. Yes, a dragon mage is going to play different than a faerie mage, but they both have the exact same skills available, and the exact same skills are going to be their most powerful ones--the only difference lies in how carefully the player must balance their offense and defense.

Further, in mudding, classing tends to screw with character concepts. For instance, in a world where experience is gained by killing, where does the pacifistic thief or cleric fit in? Even when allowances are made to allow them to level up by casting spells or stealing, it is often at great disadvantage when compared to just stabbing a squirrel in the face to learn how to, of all things, pick a lock. And then once they level up, why does my cleric who has done nothing but heal the wounded, suddenly know how to bash someone's face in with a cudgel?

Speaking of which, level systems are almost as constricting, for many of the same reasons.

A classless system in which skills are learned by doing instead of generic EXP expenditure, as I've seen in a very few MUDS, tends to work the best if it's character diversity you're going for. You can make a master thief who does nothing but steal, and would be completely screwed in a fight, or a paladin whose faith based spells AREN'T just token miracles that barely seperate him from being a warrior... or a spell sword... or a super-swordsman, all without the classes having to be specifically installed. Not to mention that it allows for far more fluidity and realism in character growth--gaining skill in fighting by doing it instead of arbitrarily spending five seconds at a combat trainer and gaining your sword skill to 75%, the last 25% having no readily noticeable effect.

And, even if we're sticking with classes and reclassing: How is a barbarian a fighter/thief? Especially a berseker type. If anything bladesinger would make more sense there, as that thieves rely on their manual dexterity, and bladesinger is a fighter who also relies on manual dexterity instead of brute force.

I don't mean to sound overly-critical, just putting in my two-cents as a very experienced mudder, who's played every version of godwars (which turned to shit once dystopia and reclassing become prominent, by the way), most versions of Smaug, most versions of Diku, ROM, etc. and quite a few custom code bases.

[Hatake Kakashi]

I hated about every GodWars mud I ever played.

You have several points in there, and I'll consider them all. Some of the muds I played and dominated (having quite a blast, I might add) were classless. Most of those were SWR/SMAUG based, but were put together very well. My only issue with them is that when it was all said and done, everyone had spammed and spammed and spammed until they all had 100 percent in all the same exact skills. PK eventually turned out to be "them that gets the first backstab in, wins the fight."

Granted, there were players who had next to NO PK skill whatsoever, but stomping the retarded is only amusing for so long...

Keep in mind, what I listed above is certainly not set in stone. These are just ideas and past concepts that I'm running by you all for your input. By all means, feel free to add in your own.

[Death Dealer]

I know it'd make it more difficult (I'm sure), but Tri-Classing would be interesting to.

Mostly because I want to see this class:

Death Dealer (Thief/Mage/Thief) - Powerful beyond normal comprehension, the Death Dealers are an elite group of assassins that dabbled in magic for far too long. They eschew the regular mage spells that they learned in their youth, and have turned to a far darker group, the Necromantic spells. Limb damage and organ disfunction are common side effects of fighting a Death Dealer, if you even manage to survive against one. Powerful backstab (not quite as strong as the Assassins however, old age affects even the Death Dealers), and access to a deck of cards that is given to the Death Dealer upon entrance into this elite group. The deck gives a random benefit or curse to the user upon drawing a card, sometimes doing damage to the opponent.

I'm sure a lot of other Tri-classes could be envisioned, that's just one that floated into my head.

[Seran]

Oh, I love playing MUDs! I've played them for so long. Why, a month ago or two, I discovered this BYOND thing and tired to tamper with it. Unfortunately, none of it really helped me much, as it did not help me understand how I could start it out. Bloody thing.

As for the matter of the MUD, well, we all greatly vary within these forums. The case of the races, the classes, abilities and powers, need to be of a great range and with intricate and precisely absorbing descriptions.

[King_black_mage]

I wish I could help you with the programming, but I suck at that kind of stuff
so this is how I will help you I will throw in soime of my ideas I hope this helps you out a bunch.

I suggest a few classes fighter, rouge, wizard, or maybe you could mix and match like a fighter can use spells once they reach a certien level or you could make a class called the Ninja, or the spell theif, or even go as far as to make your own classes like for example I got a class I made it was a Paliden Barbian who could rage and smite you at the same.

Also races human, halfing, elves, half elves, Half orgers, orcs, drwaves, dragons, vulcons, undead, minitares, angels, fiends, drow, Trolls, alliens

My favrite race I made was a race I called Trotan it is a mix between a human and a fish and it can breath water and air and it can change it legs into fin when ever it wants, it has a great swimming speed but it also has a great moment speed then only proubelm is that it can't fight too well while one land in matter of fact they suck at fighting while on land. But if they are fighting while in the water they are very very deadly. There favrite weapons are long bows and great swords. they can also use they fist really good when needed too. they are usally kinda dn nice to people as long as they don't pollute the waterland in any way. But if they do they will make them, regreite it. They usally lure pray/enemies out into the water where they preceed to wail on them. They usally travle in groups of 4 or sometimes in packs, they also travel alone sometimes but that is very rarely seen, or heard of.

Maybe you could have a few guilds also.

Well that's all the ideas I got for now if I think of any more I will tell you.

KBM

[dojindog]

I suggest a few classes fighter, rouge, wizard, or maybe you could mix and match like a fighter can use spells once they reach a certien level or you could make a class called the Ninja, or the spell theif, or even go as far as to make your own classes like for example I got a class I made it was a Paliden Barbian who could rage and smite you at the same.
Yeah, good idea and all but, what you said there
Blademaster - Fighter/Fighter dual-class. Has enhanced fighting ability, as well as the ability to catch disarmed weapons and dual-wielding.
Wizard - Mage/Mage dual-class. Gains additional casting levels, as well as a few enhanced spells. Tends to use less power in attack spells, and more power in benedictions/maladictions and status-affecting spells.
Crusader - Cleric/Cleric dual-class. Gains addtional favor from deity, and has access to many powerful divine spells.
Rogue - Thief/Thief dual-class. Best stealth ability of all classes, strongest backstab ability, and only class with coveted Slice and cutpurse abilities.
Paladin - Fighter/Cleric dual class. Gains the ability to use holy weapons, has access to many divine spells.
Samurai - Fighter/Mage dual class. Has high proficiency in magic, gains "throw" ability (among the best stun skills in the game).
Berserker - Fighter/Thief dual class. Gains resistances to magic, and possesses insanity attack. Gains maximum benefits of berserk skill.
Druid - Mage/Cleric dual class. Has access to most spells in the game, and highest casting levels. Gains access to Orbs spellgroup.
Assassin - Mage/Thief dual class. Possesses good proficiency in magic, gains access to trap skill, hamstring skill, garrotte skill, and ability to use vorpal weapons.
Monk - Cleric/Thief dual class. Best defensive skills in the game, good faith magic proficiencies. Gains access to kailindo martial art.

is pretty much all that minus the grammatical and spelling error's. But I digress, I agree with Krylo in that skills should be gained in a more conventional way. Through usage not just walking up to a NPC trainer and magically converting experience into knowing Ultima. I believe classes though are a neccesary evil they are there so Johnny-do-nothing-but-MUD doesn't become so powerful that he can destroy something that normally would take 12 different classes to defeat, in one swift blow, but I believe that most of the MMORPG's, or even regular RPG's have restricted classes too much. We should definetly take into consideration the error's of games in the past before we finalize the MUD.

Edit: Yeah and re-classing no... just noo... eh but that's just me

[Krylo]

Also, if you're going with a pure skill system, don't set the limit at one hundred percent.

Instead eliminate percents, and make the numerical value only visible in code, with more experience required everytime you increase a point.

In game this would be seen as something like

"Man, you suck at swordery."
or
"You're fuckin' awesome with that thar sword, mate!"

Depending on the actual numerical value (which would be hidden from the player to create a more immersive environment).

Next, don't put an actual cap on it.

I know you said you hate rot, but having rot come into effect only past a certain point could be very effective at creating a 'cap'. The cap, however would be more natural and fluid, allowing people to still retain incredible abilities without working, but those who continue training will always be better--stay sharper.

Further, it would remove the chance of 'Johnny-do-nothing-but-MUD' becoming all powerful, because he wouldn't be able to keep up with rot on all his skills. He could still become quite strong, by having all of them at the maximum non-rot-level and a few that he uses consistantly above it, but he couldn't get to the level that a few characters who play more often are at.

[Major Blood]

Also, any class that has a thief aspect should have the blackjack skill.

[Hatake Kakashi]

Also, any class that has a thief aspect should have the blackjack skill.


Actually, that was what the assassin's special garrotte ability was for. Sneak up on em with a piece of wire and... "graaaaaack!" Choke their asses into unconsciousness! Then spend the next couple ticks picking everything valuable from their inventory. Or have your best buddy, the rogue, slice their worn containers to spill the goods into their inventory for even more lootage fun! I wouldn't want to give every thief-type a skill for unconscious-victim production, that just takes the challenge out of being a good thief. However, if you just happen to have a good friend assassin who chokes people out for a hobby, or a wizard who's particularly fond of the sleep spell, eh....

I also was thinking about keeping a diplomacy skillset in the works... this can do things as simple as begging mobs for a few extra pence at the lower levels, to sometimes quite enjoyable things like making mogs aggy toward the given target of your choice. For example: Say Krylo and I've been going back and forth, pking each other at random intervals for a couple of weeks, and I finally tire of the game being even odds... so when he logs on, I search out a few local mobs and whisper about what kind of dirty, nasty things he's been doing with both of that mob's parents behind closed doors... suddenly, that mob begins tracking Krylo with a vengeance! It would have to have some measure of limitation to prevent the "whole damn mud's mobs vs. Krylo" scenario, but with the right amount of power, it could be useful for keeping people on their toes.

So we're getting good dialogue in on what kind of character creation we'd like to see. Another question I have is whether you want a uniform set of skills for everyone to eventually learn, or if you would prefer a creation-point system of skill selection, where you may make your character as complex, or simple, as you like, with the more complex characters using more creation points to create, and after certain points, higher creation-points translate into larger amounts of experience required to progress in level. Theoretically, you could make a character of very few skills in this fashion that would level up somewhat quickly. For example, you choose 6 basic skills to get you through the mud, none of which are considered overwhelmingly powerful, and end up using 12 creation-points to start your character. This would translate into requiring 1-2k experience per character level. Meanwhile, the local "Johny-does-nothing-but-MUD" decides he wants a character that can do virtually anything, takes every last skill available to him, and creates, resulting in a CP total of 230 or so... this would translate into roughly 106-300k exp needed for every character level to advance. Using this system, some people could grow very quickly, specializing in only one or two things, while our more diverse brethren would spend a lot more time on the long road to the high levels, but would have plenty of time to perfect their various abilities.

And what kind of settings do we want for the mud? More opinion on this, please? What kind of mobs would you want to fight, and what kind of quest system would you like to see?

[_mike]

I really like this "choose your skills at level one and work from there" idea, Kakashi. It would allow us to make just about any character we want, and not result in everyone grinding trying to max out every skill.

I've been wondering, however, if the goal of this MUD would be for us to try to reproduce our NPF persona's skill set. You'd need a very flexible system for us to be able to do that. Also, would this MUD have an NPF theme (like area's called "Off-topic" and "Rules")? I remember you asking for suggestions as to the kind of world we'd want this MUD to be, and an NPF MUD seems like the best choice to me (might be kind of limited, though. Maybe the individual forums should be represented as towns and cities).

[dojindog]

So would these MUD's work like a D&D setup where all the characters are on a quest and once they finish the quest they restart? Can pick a different class and/or race afterwards, or maybe a rebirth system like in Rag... although that would be pretty close to the leveling up to reach a second job/class... I'm honestly fond of the first Diablo's setup myself recieving quests from the townsfolk one little dungeon in the middle of one town 100 something floored dungeon... gwahhhh so good. If we were gonna have classes like the ones you suggested I'm thinking Futuristic would be a tad bit akward. I'm thinking the classic RPG mobs Goblin's, Dragons, and Succubbi (or however you spell it), and if we could find a way to work it out better for people in different time zones, or who have to work during prime gaming hours...

Well there you go 1 answer 12 questions I might be over analizing (or as Shiney once said analysing) I'm not sure what a MUD is capable of.

Edit: capitilazied Shiney it's a proper noun.

[Mac]

Here is a suggestion.

Why not have custom Classes. You choose your class but then you have to award him different skills making them your own. eg. Make a Warrior Class with Garrote(sp) or a Thief Class capable of casting dark magic.

And also with cities. Why not have them named after the Administrators instead the forum titles.

just a suggestion.

[Krylo]

I've never been fond of black-jack skills personally. Mostly because they're pretty damn cheap everywhere I've seen them.

Maybe if you made them inapplicable if you weren't hidden, or force a test of strength or stamina (with the attackee at a disadvantage of course), but the way they exist in most MUDs that contain them (which is to say anyone who knows blackjack can knock ANYONE out) allow for excessive unavoidable ganking of anyone by anyone.

I'd also, personally suggest, a reworking of classes for a modern setting. Fantasy gets old after awhile. Or you could even go with a mixed setting. Modern in some places, fantasy in others, sci-fi in yet others.

Oh, and I do like the diplomacy skillset. If you're going with a level system a simple way to control it would be to allow the diplomat to only control a certain amount of mobs that is dependent on his level--with the skill system just make it dependent on the level of his skill. Perhaps both.

[Lockeownzj00]

Hatake: Have you ever played with the Wushu PnP style? It's quite fun. It forsakes traditional math-based PnPing for stylistic fights. That is, you are rewarded for being more creative and more stylistic in your fighting style (with some math included, obviously), rather than your quantifiable abilities.

I realise this is harder to implement into a MUD, but if you unify this concept with something like Fallout 2, you can make the skillset much, much more interesting than the mundane "Fletching," "Mining," and "Magic" gambit we see in all-too-many MUDs. Have you played Fallout 2? If you haven't, I'll give you info on the skills and what they do. It creates a unique appeal that really is hard to resist.

For setting, I'd say nothing too silly. I realise we're a silly bunch, but a cartoon world is something I don't want to log into day after day. The silliness can be implemented in the game, but it should be largely user-created silliness, ie, permutations of the chat and using the game's rules to fuck around. On the former, in-game humor is extremely rewarding when it's in the style of a Lucas Arts adventure game, or even Planescape Torment, where it's the irony of the situation and who you're talking to, rather than a slapstick joke.

I can't say I'd prefer a modern setting. Perhaps a fusion? Something like Arcanum? I don't really like Krylo's idea of a Disneyland-type division among the world, I'd prefer more of an eclectic style. I've always loved the idea of space colonies (think Gundam Wing--you know those huge rings, that inside, look like Earth-cities?), perhaps with a tinge of Fantasy, as in, the "biodome" environments are extremely diverse, or due to some unforeseen factor, went out of control and spawned their own life forms.

[Hatake Kakashi]

More thoughts pondered over the day:

Yep, I've played Fallout 1 and 2. Got quite addicted to both for quite a while. Talking about the Hubologists in the Scientology threads was a refreshing bit of nostalgia.

Going to Krylo's idea of undead, I had an idea I'd been mulling over for a while. I was considering a "remort" system, in which, once you reach a certain level requisite, you may choose to enter one of the forms of undeath/creature of the night/whatever. I have 3 types of undead in mind so far: Nosferatu, Garou, and Mummy. The Nosferatus would have a feed (or bleed, I guess) command, where they could bite their opponent in combat. This would serve 3 purposes: 1, damage to your opponent. 2, keeping the nosferatu's hunger down. 3, draining your opponent of their blood could be used to replenish your mana pool, so this would be a most feasible choice for spellcasters, and even some hybrids. Who here has played a Nosferatu Paladin before? Nosferatus would gain the "entrance" ability, in which they may issue a single-command charm request to the victim per use. Nosferatus would take DOT in the daytime outdoors, and gain a vulnerability to weapons made of wood.

Garous would be a little tricky, as many theories seem to place their sustenance on the connection to the earth they seem to possess. However, simply pulling a hunger/thirst code away from one subtype hardly seems feasible, so rather, I would think they would consume the rotting parts of their victims for their repast. Severed arms, legs, etc... guts would still remain poisonous. They would gain a plague-like ability, spread through a bite, that would deal DOT to the victim. Garous may also morph into their werebeast state, shunning weapons in combat and using their claws instead. However, while in a morphed state, they are cursed, and no deity prayers may be answered. They also will be more susceptible to maladiction magic in such states. As a garou took more and more damage, they would begin to panic and enter a frenzy, hitting harder and faster with more wounds taken. Garous would, of course, gain a vulnerability to silver.

Mummies would wrap themselves in undeath, preserving their bodies against the ravages of time and decay. As such, given the measures taken for such preparations, they become resistant to most forms of physical attack, gaining vulnerability only to fire. This could, to a point, be used to beef up resistances to previous vulnerabilities: An elfen mummy would reduce his vulnerability to iron, and acquire a vulnerability to fire instead. As mummies aren't known for their agility or range of movement, their movement points, or stamina, or whatever you want to call it, would suffer, and their gains per level would be significantly less than other races/classes/remorts. I am uncertain how these should feed, as the organs idea is already well within the field of Garous. However, I am considering granting them an ability, fear, which will allow them to feed from the tangible fright exuded by their victims when this ability is used. A player affected by fear would flee uncontrollably and randomly for 6-10 rooms, depending on their resistance and the level difference between mummy and target. Mummies could also be granted a hex command, which would work as a stackable curse, that is, a hex may stack with the curse spell, or stack on top of a curse effect upon a garou. I'm not sure if I want to let the hex stack upon itself yet.

On reclasses: I am thinking of allowing all classes to be selectable for creation from the start, if we use a class-based system. Each class, of course, will have their own sets of abilities to choose from: We will not be seeing Warriors taking the enchanting spellgroup and enchanting their own gear, nor will we be seeing mages running around shieldbashing everyone and stealing their opponent's goods. This would still run with the CP based system, if implemented in this fashion, so people could make a cleric-based paladin/thief-based assassin/mage-based druid/whatever and make him as complex or simple as they like at the start. However, I would advise choosing skills and spellgroups wisely, as once you're in the game, it would take an assigned number of training sessions to acquire anything you may have forgotten. And training sessions of course would be in limited supply.

On modern-day settings: Would we want to include magic in a style reminiscent of a Shadowrun-style scape, or forsake magic in favor of skills a la Cyberpunk? I could see custom weapon/armor crafting in this scenario, to make fleshing out your own character just a bit easier (less hassle for imms to restring everything), and powers of gear would be directly affected by quality and cost of the materials gained, as well as the crafter's skill.

I can't stress enough that I would like SEPARATED PK in this game. I know there are a lot of players who get into it specifically to gain a wealthy munchkin-type character, others like to help out the newbies, still others like to leave their buttprints in the local town square while they load the OOC channels and chat channels with various conversation. The question, of course, is how to enforce separated PK. We can either have rules regarding what constitutes a "legal" pk... however, this tends to be difficult to enforce and results in the occasional damage to someone who was minding their own business when a pker gets it into his/her head to be an asshole. The other method is to make a "clanning" system, in which only clan-flagged people will be PK-active. We'll set the entrance to such a system at roughly mid-level, so people can have time to decide for themselves if they want to get into the messy world of PK and all the dickwaving/looting/gangbeating that tends to come with it. However, once you make your choice, you're stuck. No jumping from one to the other.

Now if you want to join the PK world, but want nothing to do with any existing affiliations, what then? No problem. There will be a pair of unregulated sects of PKers... Loners and Outcasts. Loners are the ones who joined the pk system, but wish to abide by nobody's charter and politics but their own. The advantage is that they're free to target or ally with whomever they choose. The disadvantage is that they have no clan halls to disappear into when the chase gets too hot... they can still try to make it into a private room or safe room, but if they can't... well, sucks to be them. Outcasts are people who once belonged to a clan, guild, or syndicate, but for whatever reason, are no longer in that membership. Outcasts are treated suspiciously by the mob populace, and they may find that acquiring goods is somewhat more costly, or even impossible, if their bartering skills are not sufficient.

Clan Halls: Raidable or not?

[Lockeownzj00]

Clan Wars via hall raids sounds interesting to me.

But how exactly would that work? How does player death and equipment work? Is it going to be a corpse-quest?

[Hatake Kakashi]

Clan Wars via hall raids sounds interesting to me.

But how exactly would that work? How does player death and equipment work? Is it going to be a corpse-quest?

Hall raids would technically be available to anyone with viable reason to raid at any time. Simply put, if you're in a rival clan, and you happen to have a grudge against another clan, raid em, kill their shopkeeper mobs, swipe the stuff out of their storage room (or simply blow everything in it to ashes), and taunt them while taking a rest break seated on the corpses of their hall guards.

There would be rules regarding hall raids, such as no more than 1 raider per defender... so someone isn't going to get pinned in their hall safe room alone while 20 people from another clan or two run and pillage the place... and other simple civilities. Imms may be able to generate a mortal avatar to defend if I decide to have imm-sponsored clans, but they may not use their avatar to raid, and the avatar would count as 2 defenders, for all intents and purposes.

There are two types of player-death/loot that I am toying with. Both will involve a player-respawn at a certain location: Hospitals for the unclanned/loners/outcasts, clan hall respawn points for clanners. One type of death will leave a corpse with EVERY piece of the player's gear in it, and most of their cash... bad news if you're in a battle and not wanting to get looted. The other is a somewhat more kind system, where you only drop what you were holding and what was in your immediate inventory. All items otherwise worn or stashed into a worn container will respawn with you. The second system would be more apt to prevent full-loots, which can really suck for a gamer who's worked hard on putting together a nice set of gear.

Clan wars being won over a mountain of corpses? Naw. To code that would invite spam-kills, spies logging in and "dying valiantly to superior forces" without raising a finger in their own defense, that sorta thing. Besides, as our wars in the middle east are showing, body counts do not a victory make, particularly when the enemy is blowing themselves up to hurt you.

Wars will be initiated and ended through negotiations between leaders. This can lead to some long, drawn out wars (which I always enjoyed, personally), or some very short ones... depending on how stubborn the clan leaderships are. Either way, when a war is begun, it will continue until one decides to submit, or both will call it a draw.

[Lockeownzj00]

I like the ideas for death. I've always thought of how harsh MMOs have been, but I realised making it easier is only pussing out. Perhaps there can be different servers, or different settings for those who want different types? Even if they aren't, it does make it more realistic--a real adventurer fending for himself in the Deep Mountains of Whatever shouldn't have a sense of tranquility and safety; all MMOs which are spoiling their players are failing at immersion.

Even a harsh system which essentially leaves your body unprotected would be fine with me--it gives the game much more of a risk factor, and you can't unrealistically run around with 15,000 gold and a full set of Awesome Mail. You suddenly have to start investing in banks and/or safekeeping in houses or clanhalls. Suddenly, when you go out on an adventure, even if you are incredibly strong, you are a little less cocky--you know the consequences if you fail.

Speaking of which, will property be possible, at all?

[Azisien]

Hah, I've played on several Star Wars MUDs where death meant the total deletion of your character and everything he/she owned.

I ended up quitting one such MUD when I tried to an UNKNOWN BUG and the immortals REFUSED to reimburse me in any way.

Edit: Woohoo, 999 posts, I'm on the edge baby!

[dojindog]

This almost seems like a given but will multiple characters per person be given or will we have to stick with the one we got?

[Azisien]

Should have multiple characters. Most MUDs I've played don't even have 'accounts' to have multiple characters on, the ones that did could create multiple characters...sooo...yeah, there should be multiple characters.

[Bells]

Sorry but i didnt read all of this... my "idea" to give to you guys may be useless or not, im just gonna throw it in the cauldron here...

Imagine a IP Based chat program IRC style, with embued Dice rolling systems

Easy, light, and gets the job done

From there on, all you guys need is to Pimp it up... Shared Audio Effects, Player Sheets, Images, Maps, Admin Mode with privileges and the such...

[Hatake Kakashi]

Multiple characters would be allowed. Multiplaying? No. Your characters would only be allowed on one at a time (and no, it's not cool to "share" a character with your friends). Muling would be frowned upon, but could carry less of a penalty than actual multiplaying. Such acts would send your characters on the fast track to freezing pending a review of your activities. Worse comes to worse, your characters would be gone. Please be sure to play fairly.

IRC with dice rolls and character sheets.... what? I thought that's what a MUD essentially is.

Oh yeah... property. Playerhomes will be available, though to what extent, I don't yet know. I remember playing several muds where it became quite a hobby of mine to go around and grenade people's homes, obliterating all treasures locked within. Good times. We'll see what happens.

Edit: Also, in true RedMage style, what would you guys think about putting in a series of character-affecting flaws that you can select to lessen the CP load you plan to take? These flaws could potentially affect your performance in game, keep that in mind. An assassin with a problem of Tourette's will have an interesting time as he sneaks and randomly utters things on the way to his target.

[PyrosNine]

OOOh! Character flaws!

Is "incredibly homocidal" or "Pyromaniac" a valid option?

[Major Blood]

Multiple characters would be allowed. Multiplaying? No. Your characters would only be allowed on one at a time (and no, it's not cool to "share" a character with your friends).

A good way to make sure there is no multiplaying is to go with the multiple character per account thing, but limit connections from a single IP to one. Presto, no multiplaying.

[Krylo]

I've really always disliked the idea of having to clan or get to a certain level to begin PKing, or whatever.

Mostly because the clan system in general removes a lot of the fun of a PK mud.

PKing should be between the player hunting and the player being hunted. If you want to bring a clan into it, that's ok, but it should never be necessary. However, once you say 'Ok, you pick the PK tag, you're open season," it opens up a system where lower level people can NEVER PK.

Why not?

Well let's say we have 100 levels and 25 is the PK pick tag level. I decide to turn on my tag.

Now I notice a level thirty character, and, being as that I'm rather good at PK (as I've always been), so I decide to go ahead and fight this guy. Happens I win.

Now, here comes his three level 60 friends to kick my ass three times, loot my corpse, and over all bully me for engaging in fair (for the other guy, I was actually at a disadvantage) player killing. It QUICKLY destroys the fun.

Now one might say that instituting a "You can't kill someone x levels below you" system would help. However, that still runs into problems if someone isn't a very good playerkiller, or chose a thief or cleric class (which makes solo PKing rather difficult). Let's go with Cleric for the example.

Two groups of three players, all around level sixty, meet up and fight. Group A has two fighters and a cleric, group B has two fighters and a mage of some sort. The cleric keeps his team healed, allowing them to win, while the other team--lacking healing--simply can't stay in the fight long enough.

Now a fighter goes after the cleric alone, and kicks his ass repeatedly.

OR, a pair of clerics from opposing clans (or clanless clerics) go at it, and the loser's friend, an equally leveled fighter or mage (or worse, a paladin), goes and beats the cleric down.

Heck, even not counting game mechanic power differences, you could just have differences of skill, where the new to PK players just get their asses beaten repeatedly by people in the same level bracket.

The best system for avoiding this is giving people a 'PK count'. Getting killed drops it by one, and killing raises it by one. People with 0 PKs can attack anyone, but can only be attacked by other people with 0 PKs. People with 1-5 can attack anyone with over 5 PKs, so on and so forth.

Also, I've no problem with clans, but it shouldn't be necessary to enter the realm of PKs, or even strongly encouraged (by giving only allowing clanned PKers to do Clan raids [why shouldn't a lone clanless guy run into a clan hall if he has the balls?], or giving them a ton of clan hall shit, a healer, shop, and NPC guard is plenty).

Also, within clan halls any PK restrictions should, obviously, be called off.

[Azisien]

Cleric as bad PKer? What MUDs do you play on? I played on a very heavy PK MUD, and cleric was probably the most indestructible class, and one of the most dangerous to get hunted by. Their only real problem was keeping people in battle (clerics didn't have tripping or bashing skills).

Edit: And from a d20 point of view, clerics are again one of the better PKing classes.

[Hatake Kakashi]

Gotta agree with Azi, Krylo. That cleric must suck, or they just haven't given clerics enough power in that game. I ran several clerics in my day. What happens when you get attacked?

Simple. You flee, let them chase you, hit em with a hold person spell the moment they enter the room. Then throw a curse, blind, slow, poison, weaken, plague, summon up a few dozen charmies, frenzy said charmies, order all buttrape poordumbassfighter, and proceed with the heat metal spells for lootage and quick removal of all things protective.

Least, that's how I played clerics....

Now a pk level limit system was already in my thought processes, with a flag system. Works like this: There could be 4 main flags in the game pk system - Ruffian, Thug, Killer, and Thief. Each has their own meaning and implications on who may attack you and who may not, as well as how some of the local mob populace might react to you. As a sidenote, the standard PK range would be 8 levels, higher or lower. You can, of course, PK someone above that range if you're feeling ballsy, but I won't allow some lvl 100 stomp someone just joining the PK system at lvl 20 just to get their damn rocks off. Pick on someone your own size.

Ruffian - This is a flag you receive when you attack any unflagged player, but do not succeed in making the kill. It will be set on a timer, perhaps 300-500 ticks... before the flag will wear off. It will not renew itself if you attack another player (still failing to land the kill) in that time. Only moves perceived as a direct attack would earn you this flag... sleep spells, hold person, charm person, and garrotte/traps would not. Maladictions would still give you this flag. Anyone within 8 levels may attack you without getting a flag of their own, even if they manage to kill you.

Thug - This is a flag you will receive when you attack a player and manage to land a kill or two, or when you are PKed while possessing a Killer flag. It has no timer-it is there until removed by another player, or turned into a Killer. Anyone within 10 levels may attack you while you possess this flag.

Killer - This flag is gained by making 3 or more kills without being killed by another player yourself. This stuff is of bragging rights, and most people won't belong on the Dickwave channel without it. Most people won't trust you if they see it on you, and the mob guards won't be any fans of yours either, screaming and attacking you on sight in the towns. "PKBadass is a NUTSACK! PROTECT THE INNOCENT!! BANZAI!!" ....Ahh... such memories. Along with the notoriety, you will have more enemies to worry about: Anyone within 12 levels may decide to see if you really deserve that flag.

Thief - This is the only flag you will receive for screwing up. As long as you never fail in your attempts at pilfering from other players, you'll be fine. The moment your dice rolls fail you, the player being stolen from will be alerted, and you'll be the unhappy recipient of a Thief flag. This flag tends to have even more distrust than a killer flag, and the guards will treat you exactly as they would a Killer, shouting and attacking on sight, often alerting anyone in the area of your presence. This is the only flag that will stack with other flags, in that you may possess a Thief flag simultaneously with any other flag in the game. Thief flagged characters may expect retribution from anyone within 12 levels of themselves.

The reason I wanted a clannish system is that I'm certain there are people who will not wish to PK, and that's their choice. I'm sure they'd be pissed, and I don't blame them, if they were carrying on a small RP with some of their friends, and some badass PKer runs in and kicks their ass while they're trying to work out on the treadmill. The problem with pure PK muds is that generally, there is a lack of courtesy between "teh pwnz0rz" and "teh pwnt."

As far as not being a very good PKer... people generally learn what works for them and what doesn't.... and if they find out they're just not suited for PK, that's what the nonclan system is for... they can run their player-made business, help newbies, or just sit and talk crap (except on CGOS and Dickwave Channels... if you wanna talk shit on a PK channel, make sure you're on a pk character). I'm well aware that some of us are natural predators, some learn, and some of us are.. well... meatbags in the making.

I do like your system of PK points though... I'm going to look into that and see if there's something I can work into that, other than just the flags. If you want, flesh out the details on that a bit.

As far as level limits for joining into the clan system, let's say we have a level range of 1-51 hypothetically, I would suggest making the clanning option levels from lvl 5-25.... that way people get a chance to develop their characters and see what they might want to do with them before delving into the chaos that we all know and love as PK. But in effect, it also would prevent people from getting to the maximum levels, creating an uberbadasswithalltehmostpwntgearandpwnj00alllawlz0 rz and walking all over everyone who's fought and looted (or lost) gear, and spent time in the trenches, living the hard life, only to get swatted by someone who's got the best of everything.

Now, I've gotten my hands on a couple of reasonable-looking codebases, but once again, my coding skills are less than crap... they're nonexistent. Is there anyone here interested in taking a peek and seeing what they could possibly work with?

[Lockeownzj00]

That's why I'm wondering if all this is even possible. It's hard to imagine all these features when we don't even know what we can do.

Question, though--on the Thief flag. Wouldn't everyone who wasn't a master thief get this, though? If your pick-pocketing skill is low, you have a low chance of success. Until its an 80-90% chance, you probably will get this tag. How does it wear off?

[Hatake Kakashi]

That's why I'm wondering if all this is even possible. It's hard to imagine all these features when we don't even know what we can do.

Question, though--on the Thief flag. Wouldn't everyone who wasn't a master thief get this, though? If your pick-pocketing skill is low, you have a low chance of success. Until its an 80-90% chance, you probably will get this tag. How does it wear off?

Your steal skill will go up in use against mobs, don't forget. A favorite trick of mine was to set up a series of triggers, buy a pet, take it into a private room and order it to sleep. Then nofol it, give it 100 gold, and the triggers would continue to steal the gold back and reload the mob with more until my steal skill was at an acceptable level... usually took about 6 hours from 10 percent. And you don't get a thief flag from stealing from mobs... or failing to.

As for how the flag wears off? Death.

So is there nobody in this forum of geeks that can code? For shame! I thought we were all computer geeks of some sort here....

[dojindog]

I thought that computer geeking was just playing tons of computer games (or have I been living a lie)!?

Back on topic now, I think a few people claimed to know a few things about coding back on page 2

Edit: i.e. This sounds awesome, I can do anything that no one else wants to do. I have elementary progamming skills, good sprite skills, and access to high powered computers (Dad works in graphic design). Wait, will this use sprites or drawings or what?

Edit2:and Ok, I'm interested and willing to lend my skills. I can help program, contribute to design, give concepts etc.

Also, what code will be using for it? I can learn the syntax if need be, if the program is free for me to use. I don't have any money to spend either.

But seriously. This forum would look kickass with an MUD game to tide me over while waiting for someone to post in an RP.

[Krylo]

Also, most of the stuff that's been suggested (all of it, from everyone, actually) I've seen implemented before, and even know how it would be implemented--though I don't know the actual code. Admins tend to just describe the process, and not the actual coding involved in it when you bullshit with them.

Most of the stuff that's not been suggested by me (but by others) is actually pretty basic in most code bases. Short of the classes you could download a base with almost all of that already coded.

[Hatake Kakashi]

Awesome. GARUD, DC, you guys interested in taking a look at the code? Simple stuff, no graphics (unless we fit some ASCII in there somewhere), just actions/reactions and character builds, mob codes and things like that.

Next thought: Player-owned shops. Here's what I'm thinking:

Depending on the codebase that is eventually selected (I'm juggling a ROM codebase which is basically DIKU with a few interesting tweaks, and a very customized SWR codebase that really has been well put together. Both will require lots of work to convert it to our use, but still have plenty of potential), I wanted to know what you guys thought of owning your own shops. Here's the deal- You put up some upfront cash to purchase the shop, we'll probably have an area specifically devoted to this. The purchase gives you a shop that will remain online 24/7, even when you are not, and a shopkeeper mob to run it. You determine what stock he will carry (by giving it to him), and what he will sell it for. When it is sold, the money will either be kept in a safe deposit for your later acquisition, or be deposited directly into your bank account. This of course, will be the price after a 5 to 10 percent fee is deducted... for the ability to sell your items anytime, and besides, a mob's gotta eat and provide for his loved ones too, ya know. I don't think they'll be allowed to be robbed... that would be seriously uncool. Then again... I suppose you could purchase additional levels of security for that sorta thing.... upgradeable shops... hmm.....

Think on it and let me know what you'd like.

[Krylo]

I rather like the idea of upgradeable, robbable shops. However, if PC shops are robbable, NPC shops should be too. It's not really fair to make one robbable to improve immersion (or just throw the thieves a bone), while leaving the other immune to all, thus destroying any real potential gains (and fucking over PC shop owners).

Either way, however, I like PC owned shops. I never liked owning them myself, but they always made my life easier. For instance--in SWR MUDS, usually the engineer class can make better armor than anything you can find anywhere. As a result you had to hunt down engineers, pay them all kinds of money for custom suits, etc. Same goes for blasters. However, PC owned shops fixed that problem. Lose your armor or weapons? Instead of hunting down an engineer to make new ones, just go to an engineer's shop.

Shops also helped the engineers a lot by letting them sell their wares easier, as well as making it easier for them to get materials. The best materials for the best weapons are often very very dangerous to get ahold of, and engineers usually couldn't fight so well. So instead of trying to hunt down a warrior, or risking (and losing) life and limb to get materials, they just walk down the street to the crusty old vetern's shop to get their stuff.

And, of course, those who wanted to explore and hunt down this hard to get stuff, still could. Just made life easier for the rest of us, while allowing characters to be more enterprising (and besides, they'd have sold stuff like that anyway--it'd just be far less effective).

Speaking of which, my favorite part of the last SWR MUD I played was that there WAS so much more to it than hack and slash and thieving and stuff. You could just make a character who sat around building shit, and then RP out being an armor smith or inventor or whatever. Also added a lot to the over all RP value. Instead of just having a bunch of killers in groups/clans, you'd have a piloting division (if we go futuristic, we NEED space ships) a combat division, and an engineering division--who fixed the spaceships and equipped the combatants. And, seeming as you're already making divisions, most would seperate straight combatants from stealthy ones, to create a spy division--and even have people who were good with their words enter a diplomatic division.

Created a lot more depth and breadth just by having PC engineers (or artificers, or whatever, depending on the setting) capable of making better equipment than you could find in the wild.

[GARUD]

Awesome. GARUD, DC, you guys interested in taking a look at the code? Simple stuff, no graphics (unless we fit some ASCII in there somewhere), just actions/reactions and character builds, mob codes and things like that.


You can have my help. Just show me the way to the program. Although, until nextt Friday, I can't do anything but study for my exams. Still, point to me the Syntax and the environment, give me the plan and I'll do my best.

PKing, I think there should just be a PK area with a level fight limit (eg, LV20 cannot fight Level 30). Like in Runescape how moving to a certain area can get you player killed (even though Runescape's not a MUD, it makes a good example).

PC shops sound great. I also think that there should be alot of crafting skills, but I'm not sure about how we would implement that. Also, there should houses (for storage and healing) and hotels for those not rich enough to buy or build one.

One more thing. Classes should only be like a base for your character with the option of full customisation. Eg, choosing the cleric class may give you healing spells, but you could give it warrior skills as it levels up so it's not too class based.

Garud chooses Cleric class

6 will
2 STR
Cleric holy ability obtained.

Garud obtains Level 1!
Garud obtains warrior pummel.

and so on...

So in a nutshell, yes I will assist with the programming, and I've lumped in a few ideas.

[Krylo]

I vehemently dislike the idea of pk areas and non-pk areas.

Mostly because you end up with people walking into the PK area, ganking some people, and then leaving to prevent retribution.

Plus, most of the fun of a mud PK is the hunt. The hunted manuevers around, attempting to lose his opposition and get to an area of the mud that provides benefits for them (like if the hunter can teleport away, heal, and come back [a problem I've run into before] the huntee might find an area that doesn't allow teleportation, and which he can easily block the exits), while the hunter attempts to herd the huntee away from such places and kill them before they can set up a proper defense.

When it's just one area, you usually can't have stuff like that.

[Hatake Kakashi]

So far, it looks like the easier codebase to work with will be the one that's already largely finished. That being the SWR based one. GARUD, if you have an email you don't mind sending, I can send you a full copy of the code. There are going to be a lot of things in there that you probably won't be used to, such as round-by-round combat controls.

That's right, kiddies. Ya gotta pay attention to what you're doin in this one. You can't just type "k dumbass" or "hit dumbass" and let the fight take it's course... this one requires you to first focus on your opponent, then you may proceed to attack, circle, backstab, kick, punch, whatever. However, you have to enter new attacks each round, or your character will just stand there and take a pounding. For PK, there is also an auto-re-focus feature, so if you toggle it, you can automatically focus back on someone who displays hostility.

Gets a little complicated in group ganks though, so it's not a foolproof get-you-before-you-get-me skill.

One of the things I want to remove from this codebase is the abomination of Stat Rot. Nothing peeves me more than to have to spam repeatedly to keep my stats that I already earned. To me, it's like paying for a PS2 and the games, then paying a monthly rate to play them in the privacy of my own home.

Gh3y.

I might consider some sort of rot later in the game, but for right now, I want a nice, easy starting game so that we can all have some fun together and get our stuff established.

Also, the hacking system in the codebase, I want that on mute for right now. It's overpowered, and gives people a hell of a time when Johny-does-nothing-but-mud gets ahold of any measure of skill in it and uses it to drain player's bank accounts all damn day. I'm not sure if I'll ever want that mistake back, but for now, I want it gone. It does mean that we'll have to re-implement the normal who list and whois commands. Be looking for those.

I'm thinking it would be a good idea to keep the medic skills. Basically, you grab a medkit, and perform everything from basic first aid in the first levels all the way to practically brain surgery in the most advanced stages. The healing takes time, but is a quite useful skill. There is even one you may use on yourself (it's the only one, in fact), called self-medicate. You open up the case, grab some meds, and pop em. It's not terribly effective, as common knowledge dictates a medic treating themselves typically gets very poor treatment, but it's better than nothing.

There are also hospital rooms in effect, and I'm not certain if they're safe zones or not. I know of at least one that isn't... heh. Previous experience. I also know they kick you out automatically once you're fully healed, so no hidin in there all day.

Diplomacy skills are already implemented, and in fairly good form. As are smuggling, piloting, bounty hunting, combat, engineering, and chemist. Chemist is in there for the making of combat drugs. I'm not certain I still want that in there right now... it tends to make some players ungodly strong... we'll discuss more on that, if you like.

There are also spaceships, and I kind of like the idea of a modern/future sci-fi kinda place. The ship combat is well-coded, and fairly balanced, with the right shipbuilders. Tracking skills are there as well, for the pkers, as well as sneak, hide, disguise, and a color code that is easy, but works rather well.

Thus far, it's a completely classless system... build your character the way you want.

Now then, how do we propose to build our stats? Do we want training points, autolevel, training them via exercizes (but not letting them rot, dammit!), or purchasing stat points at high prices (either via quest points/roleplaying points or cold, hard cash)?

EDIT: Random thought hit me before I went to bed. I assume most of you are familiar with the Wing-Wong thread.... Krylo, would a stickied PK battle post thread be feasible? Or a who-list thread, for that matter? And would this thread also be considered sticky-able before it's closed on post count?

[GARUD]

So far, it looks like the easier codebase to work with will be the one that's already largely finished. That being the SWR based one. GARUD, if you have an email you don't mind sending, I can send you a full copy of the code. There are going to be a lot of things in there that you probably won't be used to, such as round-by-round combat controls.

Send it to me, and I can tamper with it through the week, before I go into the heavy programming on friday afternoon. I've given you my email, so when you are ready.

One thing I would like to ask. Who else is on this project? Because if we can, we may be able to arrange a chat session in IRC or something, to organise what we want and so I can do some documentation.

I'm thinking we build skill stats (like the more you use a sword, the better you will get) while stats go up at either clinics, through items or leveling up (stats like STR).

[Hatake Kakashi]

I will be reviewing this thread tomorrow and seeing about selecting more of our genesis staff to get this off the ground. I've selected two already, but for further considerations, I would like to include the opinions of those I've selected... if nothing else, I would like to ensure that an imm team selected will work harmoniously, for the most part.

Edit to come after review.

EDIT: I've thought of a couple of people who have caught my interest in this thread to add to the imm staff, and will be discussing it with the two people I've already taken aboard to see if they agree... if all goes well, you should be receiving a PM from me very soon.

EDIT2: Got the opinion of one of the admins... waiting on the other.

[synkr0nized]

It's always fun when a forum community plans out something like this.
I wish you the best in making it actually happen -- few do.

[Hatake Kakashi]

It's always fun when a forum community plans out something like this.
I wish you the best in making it actually happen -- few do.

Given the resources we have, if we can overcome a small obstacle, it actually will be a few minor code tweaks and some building adjustments.

On that note, I've received word from my other selected Co-Admin. Those of you whom we think could be a good starting staff will be hearing from me.

[GARUD]

Oh yeah, and guess what! I don't have anymore exams for a while! What does that have to do with MUDs? Well, that means I can get into the programming right away. Right now, I'm sorting out the tweaks.

[Hatake Kakashi]

Excellent to hear, GARUD! That just made my night.

So tell me, did you figure out the problem with the one codebase I sent you? I've gone through it, but nothing stands out. My brother-in-law (himself quite the Linux geek... slackware, anyone?) also could not find what Microsquash's Hotmail was whining about.

UPDATE: Geez... bump the thread once in a while, guys. I'm looking for suggestions in what you'd like to see. Don't leave me hanging.

In the meantime, I'm pleased to announce that we've secured a few good people for immortal positions on our team. I truly can see this becoming a reality, with the way it's progressing. GARUD, I'm sorry I haven't gotten back to you yet. I'm waiting for a day off from work so I can go chat my brother in law up and see what we can figure out for your options for bringing up a shell, and what utilities would be best to use. I'll let you know the very soonest moment possible. Also, I'll have the links you requested at that time.

I still have a few positions open on our staff, folks, so if you have something you'd like to contribute to our lowly text-based project, send me a message.

[phil_]

I have a question of the most noobish nature!

Can anyone suggest a MUD client? There are quite a few, and I'm feeling a might overwhelmed. Well, not really, it's just that when this thing eventually gets rolling, I don't want this to happen:

Other player (I'll say Krylo): So, Phil, what client do stupid people use?
Me: I use client X, it works rather well.
Kry: Oh, well, everyone else uses client AWESOME, and you're an idiot for continuing to use the vastly inferior client X. Also, you have herpes now.
Me: =(

[Bob the Mercenary]

I'd wholeheartedly suggest GMUD. It outdoes them all. It supports color text, has all sorts of nifty features, like macros and friends lists, and is just really easy to use. I've been using it since seventh grade.

[Krylo]

Portal > GMUD in functionality, although it's harder to use. It also has a built in MP3 player, and allows you to assign sounds and songs to text triggers.

Further, it allows you to use logic problems, mathematical functions, etc. in your triggers, which allows you to make triggers that not only react to a certain text, but react to ranges of numbers/text or to make a command that changes everytime it's done (such as kill 1.human followed by kill 2.human etc.)

That's all in addition to everything GMUD does.

Strangely, though, I've always been fond of Zmud (which is a lot like GMUD, but with a Z, and a slightly different interface). Probably because it's the first client I used, and I got to know the ins and outs of it very quickly, while every other client feels unnatural and artificial to me... you know, because I haven't been using any other client for years upon years. Unfortunately, I don't think they have a freeware version anymore.

In the end it all comes down to personal preference. A lot of the functionality of Portal is completely unnecessary, for instance, and even illegal on many MUDs, as that with Portal [and GMUD to a lesser extent] you can build groups of triggers that will control and train your character automatically while your'e away... many places frown on this. However, such groups can still be useful if you feel like eating a pizza or watching TV while still at the computer, etc. Just so long as you're watching the trigger go they can't prove you aren't actually doing it yourself, after all (and most places don't care, so long as you don't leave it to play while you're in the other room playing XXX-TREME biking 32, or sleeping, or something).

Also, Phil totally caught my essence in that little blurb.

[Azisien]

Gmud and Zmud are good for learning clients, since they're simple. I still use Gmud because it was always free and easy to find on the half dozen different computers I used to download it on and play with. I find it less handy than Gmud for designing complex triggers though (You can still do full autonomy with Zmud).

[Hatake Kakashi]

Zmud is the best. I highly recommend it. I worked with the freeware client for... holy hell! 8 years?! Damn... I spent a lot of time mudding. Anyhow, I worked with the freeware client for nearly a decade before I finally shelled out the cash for the updated version a couple of months ago. I never regretted it. Especially after trying Gmud, Mushclient, Kmuddy, and of course the dreaded telnet... ugh.

GARUD, you had a question about what to open the mud with. I would use any of these mud clients for your interface, but to actually RUN the mud, since you're on a windows box, use CYGWIN (http://www.cygwin.com/). I guess the best way to describe it would be to call it a Linux emulation software. Sort of.

[Krylo]

(You can still do full autonomy with Zmud).
The pay version of zMUD allows you to put mathematical functions into triggers? I only ask because the freeware version never did, but Portal did.

I only used portal for a slicer on an SWR codebase actually. There wasn't a skill on that codebase to find other players bank accounts, only one to hack them. So you'd have to guess the number, anywhere from 000001 to 999999. I made a trigger with a variable that increased by one everytime the trigger was done.

Thus, I would hack 000001 the first time, then 000002, then 000003, etc.

I averaged about one bank account every day or so, if I left the trigger running almost all day.

It was also, in that SWR, one of the only ways to level slicing, as that it was the only skill in slicing you'd get before level 20+. The alternative was doing package quests over and over again, that other people were also constantly trying to do (thus resulting in it being impossible except very late at night).

I wouldn't have been able to put those triggers together in the version of zMUD that I had.

Although I did make quite a few full autonomy training trigger groups with zMUD too, just nothing that involved a change to the command everytime I pulled it off.

[Hatake Kakashi]

Alright. I'd like to announce our current accepted board of Immortals who will be working with us on the project as soon as GARUD brings up the codebases and selects the one he can work with.


Administration: Kakashi, GARUD, Krylo

Enforcement: Bob The Mercenary

Building: phil_, Azisien, Lockeownzj00

With a team of 7 members, we should be able to easily make this thing a reality. I'll follow up with GARUD and see if there's further assistance I can render him. Builders, there are some of you who are a little inexperienced, and some who are more so. I would recommend getting some rough-drafts drawn of maps you'd like to create... the old graph-paper and pencil technique always worked for me. Be sure to number your rooms, we're probably looking at 100-room areas to start. I also might assign finished areas for modification from an old mud to suit ours, as it might help you get used to the process and see how a lot of the roomflags work.

Enforcers: I'll probably have some minor building projects for you as well. If you don't know how to build, that's fine, those of us who do will give you a hand.

I need to know some schedules to figure out a mutual free-time for all of us to set up a chat and talk about this mud and what we want to see from it as far as storyline, areas, and player features. I'm working the next two days, but I do believe I have this Sunday and Monday off. If at all possible, I'd like to set up a dialogue sometime then.

[Azisien]

The pay version of zMUD allows you to put mathematical functions into triggers? I only ask because the freeware version never did, but Portal did.

Well, for the majority of the time I used Zmud (couple years), I used a...hem...completely legal and paid for version. It was an older version but it did the trick. It had its own little scripting language (okay, not a FULL programming language, but more than enough to get by) where you could take very general parameters beyond the use of basic triggers/macros (which would normally put you in an endless feedback loop) and set variables to those to vary your responses (triggers worked too, but you'd end up making lots of triggers).

With Zmud I ended up making a fully autonomous gold running bot on a MUD I used to play. It would go to its guild hall with high regeneration rates, sleep, upon full mana it would wake up, gate to an area with good gold loot, summon full charmies, verify all the casts worked, and systematically go through every room in the area, killing all the types of monsters known to be in that area. When it reached the set endpoint, it would gate back to town, go to the bank, deposit the cash, and walk to the guild hall. I ran it for about two weeks for over 16 hours a day and bought a ridiculous amount of stuff. :p So I've heard Portal is great, I know some mudders who use it, but Zmud does the trick too.

So for scheduling and such, my most availible times are monday, tuesday, and wednesday. They're usually my days off, but before those days I will verify if I'm not doing anything so we can chat about the MUD or whatever. There are other times too, perhaps, but cross them bridges when we come to them. Then we can blow them up, too. Damn bridges.

[Hatake Kakashi]

So I'm off Tomorrow (Thursday, the 15th) and Friday. Anyone available to begin the discussion?

[GARUD]

I can get on chat on Friday, but it will be late at night (soocer training). However, I do have the weekend off. How about that?

[Bob the Mercenary]

Sure, I'm up for Thursday. The only times I can't meet are Tuesday and Friday nights.

[Edit] Or yeah, weekend's fine.

[Lockeownzj00]

I'm available most nights. On the 27th I leave for Japan (sorry guys!), but I'll most likely be on occasionally. I'll be back at the end of July and can jump right back in.

I say we start some IRC sessions to get the ball rolling.

[Krylo]

I'm on AIM almost all the time. Don't really have an IRC client, though. Just message me whenever.

[grunthork]

Ok I've just joined this forum because I searched for "mud programming" on google. So now i've read through this thread and i see that it ends quite some time ago. I just started to mud, although i've been into RPG's for as long as i can remember. The mud I'm playing is decent, but there are many things i wish to improve upon. So I set out to program a mud. That is when i found this post, and I ask, has anyone from this thread started the mud yet? I'm eager to do so, though i've only taken one C++ class. I would like to help if you all are working on it, though most of my help may consist of simply learning the coding part, of which i know very little.

[phil_]

Unless I'm just being left out, this project died due to communication difficulties. This was less than unforseen.

As to helping you code, I'm not sure any currently active members here will be too helpful. Most of the folks on this project were coding newbies (again, not all that surprising it died in conception). The senior shmucks haven't posted much recently, though they may be lurking. Sorry.